(no subject)

[heidi]

Okay, how many of you feel that Dumbledore's characterization in PS/SS: The Movie would have been vastly improved if Steve Kloves or Chris Columbus had deigned to include four words from the book:

Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.

For me, those four words were among the elements in Book 1 that hooked me into reading the book way back in October of 1999, and they were part of Dumbledore for me. Well, that and his reaction to the twins' singing the school song, but for the sake of not adding minutes to the movie, let's just keep it to those four words.
Instead, they spent eighty seconds or so showing Hedwig flying through the snow. Wheee, lovely.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. And one of the reasons why, as alice_and_lain and cjestes can tell you, I stood up when the credits began and began stamping my feet on the floor in frustration and anger about the way the movie had been changed so much from the book* and the way the changes all felt stupid, or dangerous (Harry actively using his hands to injure/kill Quirrel, not just to protect himself and the stone).

We shouldn't have to use our imaginations to fill in the gaps about Dumbledore twinkling in the movie, and we shouldn't have to use our imaginations to fill the gaps in how Hermione finally decides she is either (a) finally actually interested in Ron as a boyfriend, or (b) finally actually willing to pursue Ron such as to have him become her boyfriend (and can we all FINALLY agree that before HBP, she was either not interested in him as a boyfriend, or had not undertaken to deem him her boyfriend? Good.).

The thing is, there are possible reasons for why she would do (a)-or-(b). The near-fatal injuries at the Ministry, or the risk of death in the woods with the centaurs would be enough to push anyone to change her perspectives on things, and I know from being-near-near-death-experiences. When I was 19, my then-best-friend and I were parking her car across the street from the townhouse just off campus where I lived, and these two guys in a van pulled up behind her, looked right at me, and grabbed her bookbag which was slung across her chest, dragging her 40 or so feet and running over her, possibly twice.

She was in and out of a coma for two days, ended up with pins in her hips and spent about two months in the hospital in traction; she's more or less fine now, fifteen years on, but watching her nearly die, and being five feet away from having been the victim myself, was enough to turn me, at 19 (ie about two years older than OotP/HBP Hermione) away from the career I'd planned to have (journalism) into law, in large part because I had been among the pack of people who'd descended like vultures after someone was seriously injured or killed in some horrific something, and I knew I couldn't do that anymore, not after having been The Witness and the only one the press could go to for said eyewitness account. And yes, that's a life-decision change. And it's entirely possible that what happened at the Ministry inspired Hermione to make a life-decision change. It seems to me to be the Moste Potente Reasone...

However, I am sure that some of you have other thoughts that explain why she did (a)-or-(b). And it's great to take your theory and fanficize it or fanart it or vid it.

But why couldn't JKR just write it? One line... just one line from Hermione when she's talking about Boys To Invite To Invite Jealousy would've done it, like one line from Dumbledore in Movie #1 would've changed his characterization to all those (and I know some of you are among them) who saw the film before reading the books (and along those lines, what did you think of Dumbledore when you saw the film versus read the books, if you did the movie first?).

I'm not a lazy reader - I can ponder a scene or a character for years, now, can't I? - but in this case, we shouldn't have to. If there was a reason, then that reason should've been in the book. If there was no reason, no inspirational moment of impact, no justification for Hermione to change her thoughts about Ron or at least her responses to him, then yes, that aspect of the book makes no sense. And what's frustrating me is that it would be *so* easy for it to make sense and be a natural progression of Hermione's character. Just. One. Line.

ETA: I wrote the above while about 24 hours behind in reading LJ, and on my first page spotted a link to this post by amanuensis1. Word, is all I can say. Incorporate all that into here; I wish I'd said it.


* Yes, I know that PoA was also changed from the book, but other than the neglect of the Department of Backstory and the stupid use of Sirius's "cleverest witch" line to Hermione, which makes no sense in the context of the film, it didn't bug me as much because the changes weren't of the degree of stupidity of the Flight of Hedwig, sigh, sigh, sigh.

Comments

[casirafics.livejournal.com]

I agree totally about "nitwit! blubber! oddment! tweak!" -- I dearly wish that had been in there. On the other hand, you're more bitter about Hedwig than you should be, hon. ;) Occasionally, during the course of a movie, one must stop and BREATHE. These movies could very easily turn into wall-to-wall words and that wouldn't work either....

(The above is an excerpt from the IMHO File of a very visual person, for what it's worth, so consider it in context. :)

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

I know I am overbitter about it, but I just find it annoying every single time, because six of those seconds for Dumbledore and for the twins to say "in the dessert!" would've made a huge difference in the characterization and pacing of the films. But yeah, I know it's just me. owlman loved it!

[priscellie.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear!

And I imagine he'll be dealt with more in the 7th book, but I'd really like to have an account of what happened when Percy visited the Burrow, while Harry was off wit Scrimgeour. Even a biased one would do! Percy was such a question mark after the 5th book, and in the 6th, he barely merits a mention. Though that would probably take up a lot more space than the "one line" you argue for to commemorate Hermione's shift in perception. You're right. A fandom cannot subsist on fanfic alone to explain these things.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

There's a lot of plotlines which need to be resolved in Book Seven, IMHO. I still want to know more about what happened with Rita. I want to know if Lucius knew what Draco was up to, and how he feels being left in Azkaban for a year. I still want to know what the hell happened to Penelope. But at least JKR isn't saying anymore that she'll give us *everything* we want - I mean, is she really going to tell us what Sirius's favorite food in third year is? People really want to know!

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.

I so agree. I was waiting for that line. :(

and can we all FINALLY agree that before HBP, she was either not interested in him as a boyfriend, or had not undertaken to deem him her boyfriend? Good.)

Nah I can't agree to that. The Yule Ball and Fleur jealously did it for me. XD

As for the one line, I took "Not as a last resort" as the line where Hermione justified the "Ron doesn't realize it yet." line from JKR. But I've been reading a lot of posts lately and I agree that if people aren't happy with the romance part of the book, they must remember that this is a plot driven book, and romances aren't in JKR's grand scheme of her plot.

So if the romance seems "glossed over" in the books, that's because it is. JKR didn't promise explicit detail in this department, we just kinda thought that she'd do it, and I'll tell you why.

I can only speak for myself, but when you read fanfic that fills in the gaps, it's harder to read canon again without having just a little bit of expectation that the author will do the same. I kinda think that's what's the main problem with people being upset about the pairings(especially Remus/Tonks).

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Nah I can't agree to that. The Yule Ball and Fleur jealously did it for me. XD

Then you are saying that Hermione viewed him as her boyfriend after the Yule Ball but nonetheless either wrote letters to Viktor or full-on snogged with him after the Yule Ball?

Wha?

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

Fix your tag.

What I'm saying is that I think Hermione viewed Ron as a romantic interest at the time. After everything you know now, and with the subplot JKR went with and has admitted she's been going with, what other reason do you think makes sense for Hermione telling him to ask her as a last resort, and being furious at the Fleur kiss? Or do you just feel that JKR cheated you as a reader all the way around?

And I seriously hope that you didn't post this to start a fight Heidi.

[psychic-serpent.livejournal.com]

I can only speak for myself, but when you read fanfic that fills in the gaps, it's harder to read canon again without having just a little bit of expectation that the author will do the same.

I think that's an excellent point. I definitely don't think that even if the HP books were romance novels that it would make any sense for Hermione to be the heroine/love interest of the hero based just on her being the most prominent female. She would have to INTERACT with him differently. JKR very purposefully put so many contrasts between the way Harry interacts with Hermione and the way he interacts with Ginny that it really doesn't seem at all coincidental. One girl is linked with him romantically and he spends all day denying that she's his girlfriend, telling everyone that asks that they're not a couple, while every opportunity to deny any romantic connection to Ginny goes uncommented. She even very clearly illustrated his potential with the two girls during the Lucky You speech by having him turn completely AWAY from Hermione and turn around TOWARD Ginny. She had him lie to Hermione about why he was depressed, after seeing the Pensieve, but the first time Ginny asks he tells her the truth about not wanting to speak to Cho (his erstwhile girlfriend).

As far as Hermione showing any remote interest in Ron goes, you named the two major ones in GoF, but the one that stands out in OotP is when she's trying to explain to Harry (as though he is a small child) that he should have told Cho he thought she was ugly. Not only do Harry and Hermione clearly not connect here--he's "bemused" by the idea that he ought to lie and not thrilled with the idea that Cho was trying to make him jealous, even though Hermione treats this as normal--but when she says to him, "You're as bad as Ron," then reverses her declaration when Ron shows up, there's really only one possible reason for that: SHE IS INTERESTED IN RON. She has just been lecturing Harry about how clueless he is about girls (because he isn't on the same page with her and does not seem to agree that lying and trying to make other people jealous is the way he wants to operate) and THEN she makes this comment about Ron. She's saying that Ron is as clueless about girls as Harry is, then No, wait, he's worse. While this is true, why on earth is she bringing this up in the middle of their "tutoring" session? She's being Harry's teacher/mum yet again, which is the reason for their discussing this; what on earth does Ron's cluelessness about girls have to do with anything unless she's frustrated with his not having a clue about HER? And that's exactly why she says it; while Harry is clueless he is at least TRYING to figure out the girl he fancies, wanting to know what makes her tick, and Hermione gets both a big "I don't care" from Ron at the same time that the slightest whiff of a letter from Viktor makes him turn green as a fresh-pickled toad. She's reaching her limit in OotP, and in HBP she FINDS her limit.

The same thing can be read in their interchange when Harry and Cho kiss; she only has a reason to care about Ron's "emotional range" if she's hoping that it will include a capacity to care about HER as more than a friend. That conversation was as much about her and Ron as about Harry and Cho, but their part of it was masked in a "concern" for their friend and his situation. Frankly, this was why I was pretty worried about the viability of R/Hr in the long run--and some things JKR said still leave me wondering about that, since she was so very clear about Harry/Ginny but merely saying that "it's Ron and Hermione NOW" (my emphasis), which is pretty clear at the end of HBP. I do think that they were both more emotionally honest with each other in HBP, which repairs a lot of the damage done by OotP, when they were so at odds in their relationship styles and looking like they might never connect. I'd still be perfectly happy with a platonic Trio at the end, but I'm glad she's finally reached the R/Hr stuff, whether it's temporary or permanent, as it feels like it's been coming FOREVER. Sometimes, like Hermione, I also despaired of our Ickle Ronnikins. ;)

[junesrose.livejournal.com]

Like you, those four words from Dumblydore spoke volumes to me. They helped turn this non-reader into someone who has read considerably more than I ever dreamed of, and helped me enter a world beyond what I could have possibley imagined.

Yes,

Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.

Indeed.

[ginsu.livejournal.com]

Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.

Oh, yes. Dumbledore is such a pure archetype he aches for this sort of differentiation-from-the-cliche.

On the other hand, HBP goes much too far the other way, if you ask me; but my views on the Dumbledore situation are established and need not be pursued further.

it would be *so* easy for it to make sense and be a natural progression of Hermione's character. Just. One. Line.

Wel. This area is clearly a matter of personal interpretation, but I thought I did get the line. It was during Goblet, when she essentially barked at Ron that she would be happy to go with him to dances if he would only ask her in advance.

I read that as stealth-attraction coming out via emotional stress and have never had any doubt since that this is where JKR would go, especially when she authorized the movie scripts.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

So you did read it? I thought you were waiting for it to show up at a used book thingy?

And yes, I see the point re GoF, but for at least 18 months - more like 2 years, as she didn't do anything in this book pre-slug's xmas fete either - she wasn't interested in taking any steps to secure him as The Boyfriend. What I'm positing in this post is, why couldn't jkr give us a line about why she decided to be interested in doing so?

[no-remorse.livejournal.com]

I think prettyveela's interpretation of events fascinating. Not because they are particularly fascinating themselves, but because they reduced the whole Viktor/Hermione relationship from "girl with an actual life" to "girl who just wants to make her future boyfriend jealous." In fact it reduces a lot of Hermione's actions to the actions of a "girl who just wants her future boyfriend to come out and ask her for a date/snog her etc."

Considering how much I liked that kind of thing when Ginny getting a life in OotP turned out to be nothing more than a ploy to get Harry to notice her in HBP, I am not sure what I abhorr more - Rowling forgetting giving Hermione a moment of "I want Ron to be my boyfriend" in HBP or many of her actions since GoF being a ploy to get into a boy's pants.

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

And I find your interpretation of my view on a subject I haven't even touched upon yet, equally as fascinating.

[leiabelle.livejournal.com]

Definitely agree about Dumbledore's line. It adds a sense of "wacky-but-in-a-fun-way" to the characterisation of "powerful wizard/headmaster" that is so archetypal.

I'm not really committed to a particular ship in HP (especially when it involves believing that an author can be wrong about her own characters). I prefer H/Hr in fanfic, but it seems to me that JKR has shown R/Hr tension for some time now, definitely since GoF (and maybe in PoA? it's been a while since I've read it).

I would say that Ron doesn't "discover girls" (aside from veelas, of course!) until HBP. He doesn't much care who he goes to the Yule Ball with as long as he goes with someone. Hermione, on the other hand, seems quite aware of boys at 14, but only to the extent that she enjoys being pursued but doesn't feel the need to do any active pursuing herself. "You should've asked me first" is passive pursuit -- she can say this safely after the fact because then she's not ordering Ron to take her to the ball. Her relationship with Krum seems to be based mostly on her being flattered by his attention and her realisation that he's much smarter than she gave him credit for, (presumably) in addition to her hunch that Ron was not conciously aware of his own interest in her, so that waiting around for him to notice her would not be sensible.

In OotP, Ron still doesn't seem particularly aware of girls as such. He notices that Ginny is dating a lot and that worries him, but he still doesn't seem interested in pursuing anything himself. Hermione plays relationship counselor to Harry, so we know that she understands the subtleties of romance. (Though I admit that this particular scene suggests H/Hr tension, if only because I often found myself in situations like that with male friends on whom I had crushes!), but Ron's very admission that "no one can feel all that at once" show us (and Hermione) that he has no understanding of the complexities of romance.

I agree that we could've used a little more explicit development of or background for Hermione's decision to actively pursue Ron, but I think that decision comes about as a result of Ron's discovery of girls through Lavender. The point at which Ron realises that girls are something to be desired for themselves (and not just as accessories which one needs in order to not look like a loser at social events) is the point at which Hermione decides that a relationship is worth pursuing. I think, since we're only in Harry's head and since Hermione doesn't talk about her own romantic interests, that it has to be events that hint at the reasons behind her actions. Before Ron discovered girls, he wouldn't have understood Hermione's attempts to pursue him (had she made any); he would've just thought she was acting mental. In HBP he seems finally ready to recognize and react to pursuit (see Lav Lav), and that gives Hermione the green light to pursue him, knowing that he'll understand (or at least be much more likely to understand) that she is doing so.

(I really hope this makes sense. It's not 6am-packing-avoidance-posting, I swear... *whistles*)

adding to an already long comment...

[leiabelle.livejournal.com]

Also, I hope I didn't imply that Hermione went out with Krum to make Ron jealous; I think she was genuinely interested (otherwise why would she continue to write letters to him?). However, she certainly remembered Ron's jealousy and tried to use that reaction to her advantage in HBP by asking McClaggen (sp? I loaned my copy out :( ) to the Slug Club parties. I still haven't decided if I like this sort of behavior on Hermione's part (it seems petty in a way that surprised me), it's not like she feigned interest in McClaggen beyond asking him to the party -- she did the bare minimum required to induce jealousy in Ron: allowing him to see her with another guy. Again, this "typical petty teenage girl" behavior surprises me, since Hermione is anything but a typical teenage girl, but on the other hand, it may well be the sort of calculated action to be expected from a girl who, at the age of 12, volunteered to brew Polyjuice Potion and ordered her friends to knock two other students unconscious and hide their bodies in a closet in order to borrow their identities. ^_^

[kiwiria.livejournal.com]

*applauds* Hear, hear.

[annearchy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, word about Hermione's motivation in HBP....just... *shakes head*...OotP seemed (to me) to be the Harry/Hermione show, then suddenly it's like Hermione has pulled back almost totally from that closeness she had with Harry ...with NO explanation anywhere, certainly not from Hermione's mouth, though I guess JKR wants to think she made it clear that it was only about Hermione being jealous about Ron and upset about Harry cheating to do so well in Potions. That's a limitation of using mostly Harry's POV, but you know, JKR could have written something somewhere in all those 654 pages...

I guess that's what we fan fiction writers have to do now- try to make sense out of all that seemingly senseless stuff. Oh... plot bunny maybe ;)

[irinaauthor.livejournal.com]

How awful that happened to your friend! Did they catch the people who did it?

[angelamermaid.livejournal.com]

Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.

Oh yes. My friend and I disagree on the Dumbledore of the PoA movie. She's disappointed he's not as sober and Merlinish as the first two movies. I'm delighted that he's more canon, and that I could see him saying Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.

I'm sad that Richard Harris died, but I am glad that Michael Gambon was cast, and that Alfonso Cuaron brought the twinkle back.

[aphoenix2007.livejournal.com]

I agree on the Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak. line. That really showed the character of Dumbledore, as you said, and leaving it out made Dumbledore seem like any other old, wise mentor; we could have stuck Gandalf in there and there would hardly be a difference. :)

Instead, they spent eighty seconds or so showing Hedwig flying through the snow. Wheee, lovely.

Music in the background was pretty. :D Kidding. Yeah, I felt that could have been done differently so that time was left for something more important, but maybe it was done for movie purposes, for the people who haven't read the book to see that we're changing seasons. But I agree; if it was just for us readers, they should have had something else. And that bird in PoA... why couldn't they have had Marauder backstory instead?

About Hermione... I think what she had before HBP was a fanciful crush on Ron, one of those things you get secretly jealous about, but would still go out with another boy if he asked you out. So, no, even though I'm an R/Hr shipper, I don't think she was quite ready to have Ron as a boyfriend; in fact, I don't really think either of them was mature enough, especially not Ron. I mean, Hermione did go out with Krum, but I suspect their relationship was rather like Harry and Cho's relationship, and I doubt I would have been satisfied with a R/Hr pairing with GoF characterizations. :)

Does what I said have something to do with the post? Eh... I might have gone out on a tangent... Meh.

[ceilidh]

I agree about Ddore. I don't think Richard Harris could have pulled those words off, but Michael Gambon? Definitely. The first two movies were way too cutesy for HP in general anyway.

I thought R/Hr would happen but not last after GoF, after OotP I was undecided between R/Hr and H/Hr, and am firmly R/Hr now (though I'll still enjoy certain H/Hr fic). I don't think Hermione is any less important to Harry and I actually thought their friendship deepened.

I also think that while Hermione didnt' consider Ron her boyfriend, she at some point sort of assumed that he would be, eventually, and took it for granted that when he was ready to 'notice' girls, that he'd notice her. Her nastiness to him say, in OotP, came out of frustration that he wasn't ready yet, Then we get HBP and the Christmas party invite, and things look good for them, and then Ron gets really insulted when he thinks (wrongly) that Hermione thinks he can't do a good job without the lucky potion. Hell, I'd be offended too. Next thing Hermione knows he's off snogging Lav, and that wasn't in her view of things, and when have Hermione's plans or expectations gone wrong? Ron (and Harry, with beating her in potions) are not behaving the way she wants them to, and they've always pretty much done what she wants, and they arent' now, which throws her for a loop.

I don't think Hermione would have justified to Harry why she likes Ron. Since Hermione and Harry are best friends, she probably assumes that he just understands why she likes him. She may not have a specific reason why. If you asked me why I love my husband I would not be able to tall you why. I just do.

I found the R/Hr pretty logical and making sense. H/G... not so much.

[lizardlaugh.livejournal.com]

ok, yes. That makes sense to me. In high school I had a close male friend I just adored. He had crushed on me at various times, asked me out once in junior high in a way that was even more juvenile than the Yule Brawl. There wasn't one moment where I decided I wanted him as my boyfriend, but I do remember biding my time *knowing* that evenutally it would happen. I suffered through a few Lavender Browns before we got together. It wasn't a R/Hr situation in that we never bickered like that or conciously tried to make the other jealous (at least I didn't), but I went out with other guys and he went out with other girls even though I knew I really wanted to be with him and he felt the same. So... while I don't like it that Ginny was still pining for Harry while she dated Michael, Dean, etc., I can't exactly fault her. And I don't think Ginny dated those boys to make Harry notice her. But Jo still sucks for not characterising Ginny properly.

Oh, and for the record, I am obviously not with this boy now. If Jo really wanted to make this all teenage romance realistc, she'd break everyone up eventually.

[jain]

I'm with you on the stupidity of cutting Dumbledore's line in the first movie, but I think that PoA is guilty of even worse crimes. Namely, it makes both Remus and Sirius out to be idiots.

Point the first: Harry tells Remus that he saw Peter Pettigrew on the map sometime earlyish in the day, but we're somehow supposed to believe that when Remus spies Peter and Sirius heading to the Shack in the evening he's so astounded that he rushes off without taking his wolfsbane, despite having a degree of forewarning. (The scenario's a bit hard to swallow in the book, when he doesn't have Harry's observation to think over for several hours; in the movie, it doesn't make any sense at all.)

Point the second: Sirius's absurd attempt to keep Remus from transforming into a werewolf with that little speech about "this heart is where you truly live." Um, what? Turning into a werewolf isn't something one can be mind over matter about, and Sirius ought to be well aware of it.

[lizardlaugh.livejournal.com]

I saw PS/SS before I read the books and my view of Dumbledore changed a great deal. In the first two films, he seems like a generic, wise, tired old man. Don't know if it was Kloves or Columbus or Richard Harris, but the Dumbledore of the first two films lacked the spark and whimsy of book!Dumbledore. I think they took the character in the right direction in PoA.

As for Hermione... well.... yes, it would be nice to see that change in how she saw Ron. However, because the books are from Harry's POV and because I always saw canon!R/Hr as comic relief, I didn't need to see it. Harry/Ginny is another matter. I needed to see what it was exactly Harry saw in Ginny -- but that is because Harry is the main character and the books are from his POV. While I didn't care one way or another on R/Hr vs. H/Hr, I would have preferred H/Hr over H/G because there was a chance for an ah ha! moment from Harry, where Hermione would go from bookish, annoying best friend to someone he deeply cared for on a completely new level. Plenty of opportunity for those moments, the DoM being just one. Grrrr.... See, I have always contended in the ship debates that the real question shouldn't be who Hermione ends up with, but who Harry ends up with. Damn it, and here I thought I was going to be ok with H/G, but the more I think about it the more annoyed I am.

[ginsu.livejournal.com]

If the Harry Potter series were a romance, Harry/Hermione would make the most sense--Hermione is the main female character; she's the only one who's had enough to development for a romance-type reader to think she's worthy of the main male character's interest. This, I think, is where the Harry/Hermione 'shippers (me included) are stumbling about in bewilderment trying to understand why everyone else (JKR included) are telling them the clues all went the other way.

Well, that does clarify things, doesn't it?

In an adult romance, the ultimate objective is almost always marriage. In a juvenile fantasy, not so much. Trying to map the norms of the one to the other, which is the central goal of shipping (or so it seems to me), is deeply problematic.