(no subject)

[heidi]

Okay, how many of you feel that Dumbledore's characterization in PS/SS: The Movie would have been vastly improved if Steve Kloves or Chris Columbus had deigned to include four words from the book:

Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.

For me, those four words were among the elements in Book 1 that hooked me into reading the book way back in October of 1999, and they were part of Dumbledore for me. Well, that and his reaction to the twins' singing the school song, but for the sake of not adding minutes to the movie, let's just keep it to those four words.
Instead, they spent eighty seconds or so showing Hedwig flying through the snow. Wheee, lovely.

Stupid, stupid, stupid. And one of the reasons why, as alice_and_lain and cjestes can tell you, I stood up when the credits began and began stamping my feet on the floor in frustration and anger about the way the movie had been changed so much from the book* and the way the changes all felt stupid, or dangerous (Harry actively using his hands to injure/kill Quirrel, not just to protect himself and the stone).

We shouldn't have to use our imaginations to fill in the gaps about Dumbledore twinkling in the movie, and we shouldn't have to use our imaginations to fill the gaps in how Hermione finally decides she is either (a) finally actually interested in Ron as a boyfriend, or (b) finally actually willing to pursue Ron such as to have him become her boyfriend (and can we all FINALLY agree that before HBP, she was either not interested in him as a boyfriend, or had not undertaken to deem him her boyfriend? Good.).

The thing is, there are possible reasons for why she would do (a)-or-(b). The near-fatal injuries at the Ministry, or the risk of death in the woods with the centaurs would be enough to push anyone to change her perspectives on things, and I know from being-near-near-death-experiences. When I was 19, my then-best-friend and I were parking her car across the street from the townhouse just off campus where I lived, and these two guys in a van pulled up behind her, looked right at me, and grabbed her bookbag which was slung across her chest, dragging her 40 or so feet and running over her, possibly twice.

She was in and out of a coma for two days, ended up with pins in her hips and spent about two months in the hospital in traction; she's more or less fine now, fifteen years on, but watching her nearly die, and being five feet away from having been the victim myself, was enough to turn me, at 19 (ie about two years older than OotP/HBP Hermione) away from the career I'd planned to have (journalism) into law, in large part because I had been among the pack of people who'd descended like vultures after someone was seriously injured or killed in some horrific something, and I knew I couldn't do that anymore, not after having been The Witness and the only one the press could go to for said eyewitness account. And yes, that's a life-decision change. And it's entirely possible that what happened at the Ministry inspired Hermione to make a life-decision change. It seems to me to be the Moste Potente Reasone...

However, I am sure that some of you have other thoughts that explain why she did (a)-or-(b). And it's great to take your theory and fanficize it or fanart it or vid it.

But why couldn't JKR just write it? One line... just one line from Hermione when she's talking about Boys To Invite To Invite Jealousy would've done it, like one line from Dumbledore in Movie #1 would've changed his characterization to all those (and I know some of you are among them) who saw the film before reading the books (and along those lines, what did you think of Dumbledore when you saw the film versus read the books, if you did the movie first?).

I'm not a lazy reader - I can ponder a scene or a character for years, now, can't I? - but in this case, we shouldn't have to. If there was a reason, then that reason should've been in the book. If there was no reason, no inspirational moment of impact, no justification for Hermione to change her thoughts about Ron or at least her responses to him, then yes, that aspect of the book makes no sense. And what's frustrating me is that it would be *so* easy for it to make sense and be a natural progression of Hermione's character. Just. One. Line.

ETA: I wrote the above while about 24 hours behind in reading LJ, and on my first page spotted a link to this post by amanuensis1. Word, is all I can say. Incorporate all that into here; I wish I'd said it.


* Yes, I know that PoA was also changed from the book, but other than the neglect of the Department of Backstory and the stupid use of Sirius's "cleverest witch" line to Hermione, which makes no sense in the context of the film, it didn't bug me as much because the changes weren't of the degree of stupidity of the Flight of Hedwig, sigh, sigh, sigh.

Comments

[casirafics.livejournal.com]

I agree totally about "nitwit! blubber! oddment! tweak!" -- I dearly wish that had been in there. On the other hand, you're more bitter about Hedwig than you should be, hon. ;) Occasionally, during the course of a movie, one must stop and BREATHE. These movies could very easily turn into wall-to-wall words and that wouldn't work either....

(The above is an excerpt from the IMHO File of a very visual person, for what it's worth, so consider it in context. :)

[priscellie.livejournal.com]

Hear, hear!

And I imagine he'll be dealt with more in the 7th book, but I'd really like to have an account of what happened when Percy visited the Burrow, while Harry was off wit Scrimgeour. Even a biased one would do! Percy was such a question mark after the 5th book, and in the 6th, he barely merits a mention. Though that would probably take up a lot more space than the "one line" you argue for to commemorate Hermione's shift in perception. You're right. A fandom cannot subsist on fanfic alone to explain these things.

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.

I so agree. I was waiting for that line. :(

and can we all FINALLY agree that before HBP, she was either not interested in him as a boyfriend, or had not undertaken to deem him her boyfriend? Good.)

Nah I can't agree to that. The Yule Ball and Fleur jealously did it for me. XD

As for the one line, I took "Not as a last resort" as the line where Hermione justified the "Ron doesn't realize it yet." line from JKR. But I've been reading a lot of posts lately and I agree that if people aren't happy with the romance part of the book, they must remember that this is a plot driven book, and romances aren't in JKR's grand scheme of her plot.

So if the romance seems "glossed over" in the books, that's because it is. JKR didn't promise explicit detail in this department, we just kinda thought that she'd do it, and I'll tell you why.

I can only speak for myself, but when you read fanfic that fills in the gaps, it's harder to read canon again without having just a little bit of expectation that the author will do the same. I kinda think that's what's the main problem with people being upset about the pairings(especially Remus/Tonks).

[junesrose.livejournal.com]

Like you, those four words from Dumblydore spoke volumes to me. They helped turn this non-reader into someone who has read considerably more than I ever dreamed of, and helped me enter a world beyond what I could have possibley imagined.

Yes,

Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.

Indeed.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Nah I can't agree to that. The Yule Ball and Fleur jealously did it for me. XD

Then you are saying that Hermione viewed him as her boyfriend after the Yule Ball but nonetheless either wrote letters to Viktor or full-on snogged with him after the Yule Ball?

Wha?

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

Fix your tag.

What I'm saying is that I think Hermione viewed Ron as a romantic interest at the time. After everything you know now, and with the subplot JKR went with and has admitted she's been going with, what other reason do you think makes sense for Hermione telling him to ask her as a last resort, and being furious at the Fleur kiss? Or do you just feel that JKR cheated you as a reader all the way around?

And I seriously hope that you didn't post this to start a fight Heidi.

[ginsu.livejournal.com]

Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.

Oh, yes. Dumbledore is such a pure archetype he aches for this sort of differentiation-from-the-cliche.

On the other hand, HBP goes much too far the other way, if you ask me; but my views on the Dumbledore situation are established and need not be pursued further.

it would be *so* easy for it to make sense and be a natural progression of Hermione's character. Just. One. Line.

Wel. This area is clearly a matter of personal interpretation, but I thought I did get the line. It was during Goblet, when she essentially barked at Ron that she would be happy to go with him to dances if he would only ask her in advance.

I read that as stealth-attraction coming out via emotional stress and have never had any doubt since that this is where JKR would go, especially when she authorized the movie scripts.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

But that is *not* what I said in my initial post. What I said was that somewhere between book five and middleish of book six, she decided that she *either* was now attracted to Ron *or* she decided that she now wanted Ron = Boyfriend. Even if you think she was viewing him in a romantic way in December of GoF, do you actually think she considered him her boyfriend at that juncture? He certainly didn't consider her to be his girlfriend (see, Lav Lav). Hence, there was a change in her thoughts or in her intentions. And said change isn't explained on paper by JKR. That is all I am saying, and I don't understand how you can be misunderstanding it. I'm not trying to start a fight but I am baffled beyond belief by what I think you're saying.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

So you did read it? I thought you were waiting for it to show up at a used book thingy?

And yes, I see the point re GoF, but for at least 18 months - more like 2 years, as she didn't do anything in this book pre-slug's xmas fete either - she wasn't interested in taking any steps to secure him as The Boyfriend. What I'm positing in this post is, why couldn't jkr give us a line about why she decided to be interested in doing so?

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

But that is *not* what I said in my initial post. What I said was that somewhere between book five and middleish of book six, she decided that she *either* was now attracted to Ron *or* she decided that she now wanted Ron = Boyfriend.

That is not what you said Heidi, this is what you said:

(and can we all FINALLY agree that before HBP, she was either not interested in him as a boyfriend, or had not undertaken to deem him her boyfriend? Good.).

So which one is it? Cause yes I am misunderstanding because you're saying two totally different things here.

Even if you think she was viewing him in a romantic way in December of GoF, do you actually think she considered him her boyfriend at that juncture?

In my opinion, you don't have to label someone your boyfriend to like them that way. I do think she considered him a romantic interest, but if we're going by defintion-by-the-book-terms, no she didn't think Ron was her boyfriend. It still doesn't mean that she didn't see him that way.

Hence, there was a change in her thoughts or in her intentions. And said change isn't explained on paper by JKR.


Exactly and here's where we differ Heidi. You obviously don't think the change wasn't explained on paper and I do. So either we'll go back and forth all night about it or have to agree to disagree about this particular point.

[chickadilly.livejournal.com]

What I'm positing in this post is, why couldn't jkr give us a line about why she decided to be interested in doing so?

Hmm ... I dunno, I suppose she didn't think it was important? I think the romance aspect is a part of the books that fandom will always disagree on, though. It works for me so I never questioned that she was interested in Ron but obviously what works for me isn't going to work for everyone and all that jazz. :)

Agree with you about DD's line "Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak." It just says something about DD's character and I was bummed we never saw it on screen.

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

Exactly. Some wanted Hermione to say in no certain terms that she choose Ron as a boyfriend, some of us thought that JKR gave us Hermione's interest in Ron in book 4. Some still don't see it. *shrug* You can't please everyone.

[no-remorse.livejournal.com]

I think prettyveela's interpretation of events fascinating. Not because they are particularly fascinating themselves, but because they reduced the whole Viktor/Hermione relationship from "girl with an actual life" to "girl who just wants to make her future boyfriend jealous." In fact it reduces a lot of Hermione's actions to the actions of a "girl who just wants her future boyfriend to come out and ask her for a date/snog her etc."

Considering how much I liked that kind of thing when Ginny getting a life in OotP turned out to be nothing more than a ploy to get Harry to notice her in HBP, I am not sure what I abhorr more - Rowling forgetting giving Hermione a moment of "I want Ron to be my boyfriend" in HBP or many of her actions since GoF being a ploy to get into a boy's pants.

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

And I find your interpretation of my view on a subject I haven't even touched upon yet, equally as fascinating.

[leiabelle.livejournal.com]

Definitely agree about Dumbledore's line. It adds a sense of "wacky-but-in-a-fun-way" to the characterisation of "powerful wizard/headmaster" that is so archetypal.

I'm not really committed to a particular ship in HP (especially when it involves believing that an author can be wrong about her own characters). I prefer H/Hr in fanfic, but it seems to me that JKR has shown R/Hr tension for some time now, definitely since GoF (and maybe in PoA? it's been a while since I've read it).

I would say that Ron doesn't "discover girls" (aside from veelas, of course!) until HBP. He doesn't much care who he goes to the Yule Ball with as long as he goes with someone. Hermione, on the other hand, seems quite aware of boys at 14, but only to the extent that she enjoys being pursued but doesn't feel the need to do any active pursuing herself. "You should've asked me first" is passive pursuit -- she can say this safely after the fact because then she's not ordering Ron to take her to the ball. Her relationship with Krum seems to be based mostly on her being flattered by his attention and her realisation that he's much smarter than she gave him credit for, (presumably) in addition to her hunch that Ron was not conciously aware of his own interest in her, so that waiting around for him to notice her would not be sensible.

In OotP, Ron still doesn't seem particularly aware of girls as such. He notices that Ginny is dating a lot and that worries him, but he still doesn't seem interested in pursuing anything himself. Hermione plays relationship counselor to Harry, so we know that she understands the subtleties of romance. (Though I admit that this particular scene suggests H/Hr tension, if only because I often found myself in situations like that with male friends on whom I had crushes!), but Ron's very admission that "no one can feel all that at once" show us (and Hermione) that he has no understanding of the complexities of romance.

I agree that we could've used a little more explicit development of or background for Hermione's decision to actively pursue Ron, but I think that decision comes about as a result of Ron's discovery of girls through Lavender. The point at which Ron realises that girls are something to be desired for themselves (and not just as accessories which one needs in order to not look like a loser at social events) is the point at which Hermione decides that a relationship is worth pursuing. I think, since we're only in Harry's head and since Hermione doesn't talk about her own romantic interests, that it has to be events that hint at the reasons behind her actions. Before Ron discovered girls, he wouldn't have understood Hermione's attempts to pursue him (had she made any); he would've just thought she was acting mental. In HBP he seems finally ready to recognize and react to pursuit (see Lav Lav), and that gives Hermione the green light to pursue him, knowing that he'll understand (or at least be much more likely to understand) that she is doing so.

(I really hope this makes sense. It's not 6am-packing-avoidance-posting, I swear... *whistles*)

[kiwiria.livejournal.com]

*applauds* Hear, hear.

[annearchy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, word about Hermione's motivation in HBP....just... *shakes head*...OotP seemed (to me) to be the Harry/Hermione show, then suddenly it's like Hermione has pulled back almost totally from that closeness she had with Harry ...with NO explanation anywhere, certainly not from Hermione's mouth, though I guess JKR wants to think she made it clear that it was only about Hermione being jealous about Ron and upset about Harry cheating to do so well in Potions. That's a limitation of using mostly Harry's POV, but you know, JKR could have written something somewhere in all those 654 pages...

I guess that's what we fan fiction writers have to do now- try to make sense out of all that seemingly senseless stuff. Oh... plot bunny maybe ;)

[irinaauthor.livejournal.com]

How awful that happened to your friend! Did they catch the people who did it?

[angelamermaid.livejournal.com]

Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.

Oh yes. My friend and I disagree on the Dumbledore of the PoA movie. She's disappointed he's not as sober and Merlinish as the first two movies. I'm delighted that he's more canon, and that I could see him saying Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak.

I'm sad that Richard Harris died, but I am glad that Michael Gambon was cast, and that Alfonso Cuaron brought the twinkle back.

[phoenixsong]

I think Ron was still at the "ew, girls are icky," or at least foreign creatures, stage during GoF and OotP. So, JKR wrote Hermione as waiting for Ron to grow up some.

I caught on to the intended H/G and R/Hr by CoS; the trouble for me is, to this day, I still have no idea why Hermione is supposed to interested in Ron romantically. That's the missing element for me -- not Hermione's interest in Ron, but what it's supposed to be based on.

Tangentally related: Harry's perception of the H/G kiss felt weird, too. At the end of OotP, I felt like Ron was pushing for Ginny to keep saving herself, as it were, for Harry. So why does Ron seem to only grudgingly accept H/G when it happens? Or is that just Harry's perception speaking?

adding to an already long comment...

[leiabelle.livejournal.com]

Also, I hope I didn't imply that Hermione went out with Krum to make Ron jealous; I think she was genuinely interested (otherwise why would she continue to write letters to him?). However, she certainly remembered Ron's jealousy and tried to use that reaction to her advantage in HBP by asking McClaggen (sp? I loaned my copy out :( ) to the Slug Club parties. I still haven't decided if I like this sort of behavior on Hermione's part (it seems petty in a way that surprised me), it's not like she feigned interest in McClaggen beyond asking him to the party -- she did the bare minimum required to induce jealousy in Ron: allowing him to see her with another guy. Again, this "typical petty teenage girl" behavior surprises me, since Hermione is anything but a typical teenage girl, but on the other hand, it may well be the sort of calculated action to be expected from a girl who, at the age of 12, volunteered to brew Polyjuice Potion and ordered her friends to knock two other students unconscious and hide their bodies in a closet in order to borrow their identities. ^_^

[aphoenix2007.livejournal.com]

I agree on the Nitwit. Blubber. Oddment. Tweak. line. That really showed the character of Dumbledore, as you said, and leaving it out made Dumbledore seem like any other old, wise mentor; we could have stuck Gandalf in there and there would hardly be a difference. :)

Instead, they spent eighty seconds or so showing Hedwig flying through the snow. Wheee, lovely.

Music in the background was pretty. :D Kidding. Yeah, I felt that could have been done differently so that time was left for something more important, but maybe it was done for movie purposes, for the people who haven't read the book to see that we're changing seasons. But I agree; if it was just for us readers, they should have had something else. And that bird in PoA... why couldn't they have had Marauder backstory instead?

About Hermione... I think what she had before HBP was a fanciful crush on Ron, one of those things you get secretly jealous about, but would still go out with another boy if he asked you out. So, no, even though I'm an R/Hr shipper, I don't think she was quite ready to have Ron as a boyfriend; in fact, I don't really think either of them was mature enough, especially not Ron. I mean, Hermione did go out with Krum, but I suspect their relationship was rather like Harry and Cho's relationship, and I doubt I would have been satisfied with a R/Hr pairing with GoF characterizations. :)

Does what I said have something to do with the post? Eh... I might have gone out on a tangent... Meh.

Re: adding to an already long comment...

[leiabelle.livejournal.com]

D'oh! The third sentence should start, "Although I still haven't..."

[no-remorse.livejournal.com]

I am sorry if I interpreted this thread wrong, but isn't that what you are saying? That the Yule Brawl is Hermione's "wannabemyboyfriend" line?

I admit you never explained that in great detail instead you just resorted to fairly tautological arguments, but Occam's Razor suggest that you mentioning the Yule Brawl in relation to "Heidi, you're wrong" means exactly what I think it means.

And if that's the case Viktor/Hermione is reduced to a ploy of Hermione's, instead of an attempt at a real relationship. See me jumping in joy.

[sistermagpie.livejournal.com]

I thought the main thing about both these romances is that you have to assume a certain view of how girls and boys "always are," whether you are like that or not. Hermione, I thought, was annoyed at Ron for not asking her to the ball in GoF, but she and Ginny were both all about waiting until the boy figured it out and went with her. It surprised me in OotP that Hermione wasn't more obviously frustrated with Ron, and maybe that's where the confusion with a lot of readers come in. Hermione seems to literally take a year off with Ron simply because he presents her with no opportunities to be obviously frustrated by his not asking her out. She writes letters to Viktor and he gets jealous of them, and that seemed like it was maybe only there so that there would be *some* reference to their romantic storyline.

Once Ron starts going with Lavender Hermione can step up her passive-aggressive attack.

I couldn't get into either of these romances as actual connections between people, but I felt like I was supposed to be watching someone's version of the Archetypal Love Story, even if it was one I couldn't relate to. So Hermione didn't need a moment where she decided Ron to be her boyfriend. She always wanted him to be her boyfriend, but her expressing that depended on where he was at. Same with Ginny. In the meantime they had to become experienced because they're just supposed to be experienced--they're always two steps ahead of the boys, waiting.