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If you don't like AU's..... Why not?
Jul. 29th, 2007 09:40 amI've been working on things for next Saturday's panel at Prophecy on the Future of Fandom, which led to ![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
emmagrant01 and I talking about a Spring, 2003 thread on FA about "everything becoming AU after OotP" and she has started a nifty discussion about the issue over here.
And I just asked this of someone else on my flist who says that "staying canon-based" (to paraphrase) is important to her.
I've asked about this on FA and LJ in the past but not for years and the composition of my flist is different than it was and now we have a closed canon so....
How, now that we are in the presence of a complete(-ish) canon, do you feel about writing and/or reading fics where romantic pairings play any role, even if it's just background?
How does JKR's statement about basically changing her mind - or possibly it's better to phrase it as "becoming less rigid" or "becoming more open to other options" - regarding Neville/Luna impact your feelings, if they do at all?
If you don't like AU's, why is hewing to canon important to you?
If you didn't like AU's before but don't want to accept 100% of the contents of the Epilogue, or the character deaths, what are you doing about it?
For me, I've never thought that a fanfic could be canon - it can hew to it as closely as an author wishes, but it can't be canon because none of us are JKR. And reading an AU versus "canon-verse" has never mattered to me, but I've also always loved AU novels in general - things like Robert Rankin and Harry Turtledove and Julian May - so loving AUs of the Potterverse has always been natural to me, but I know a lot of people don't feel that way, and I'm curious as to the reasons why.
Do you see a stigma against AU's in the HP fandom and if so, why? Do you have a stigma against AU's in the HP fandom and if so, why?
emmagrant01 and I talking about a Spring, 2003 thread on FA about "everything becoming AU after OotP" and she has started a nifty discussion about the issue over here.And I just asked this of someone else on my flist who says that "staying canon-based" (to paraphrase) is important to her.
I've asked about this on FA and LJ in the past but not for years and the composition of my flist is different than it was and now we have a closed canon so....
How, now that we are in the presence of a complete(-ish) canon, do you feel about writing and/or reading fics where romantic pairings play any role, even if it's just background?
How does JKR's statement about basically changing her mind - or possibly it's better to phrase it as "becoming less rigid" or "becoming more open to other options" - regarding Neville/Luna impact your feelings, if they do at all?
If you don't like AU's, why is hewing to canon important to you?
If you didn't like AU's before but don't want to accept 100% of the contents of the Epilogue, or the character deaths, what are you doing about it?
For me, I've never thought that a fanfic could be canon - it can hew to it as closely as an author wishes, but it can't be canon because none of us are JKR. And reading an AU versus "canon-verse" has never mattered to me, but I've also always loved AU novels in general - things like Robert Rankin and Harry Turtledove and Julian May - so loving AUs of the Potterverse has always been natural to me, but I know a lot of people don't feel that way, and I'm curious as to the reasons why.
Do you see a stigma against AU's in the HP fandom and if so, why? Do you have a stigma against AU's in the HP fandom and if so, why?
Inside, we're all a little Al
Sep. 18th, 2006 04:24 pmWatch this video (is it also up here?), then return here and take the poll...
[Poll #824219]
And yes, I know that the song is vaguely US-centric, but that's what the last option is for, right?
[Poll #824219]
And yes, I know that the song is vaguely US-centric, but that's what the last option is for, right?
(no subject)
Jun. 5th, 2006 08:56 pmWell, that discussion is back again.
You know, the one which asks whether a fic should be rated-up if it involves discussion of a subject that is Bad or Negative or involves Evil, like Discrimination or Smoking or Nazis.
To paraphrase, a relative newbie-to-FA asked whether it would be "a bad influence on readers" and thus merit a high rating if a character stated that he believed women and gays should have less rights than others, and that he was antirace mixing (like, not mixed-marriage, but separate continents). And she wanted to know if the higher-rating presumption should be mitigated by her intent to make it clear that she didn't *agree* with said character's rantings.
Obviously, on FA, we don't require a fic be "rated-up" just because there's discrimination in it. As the American Library Association says, and FA adopted years ago,
And if they did, is it the writer's responsibility to write differently, or the reader's responsibility to Not Be Galactically Stupid?
You know, the one which asks whether a fic should be rated-up if it involves discussion of a subject that is Bad or Negative or involves Evil, like Discrimination or Smoking or Nazis.
To paraphrase, a relative newbie-to-FA asked whether it would be "a bad influence on readers" and thus merit a high rating if a character stated that he believed women and gays should have less rights than others, and that he was antirace mixing (like, not mixed-marriage, but separate continents). And she wanted to know if the higher-rating presumption should be mitigated by her intent to make it clear that she didn't *agree* with said character's rantings.
Obviously, on FA, we don't require a fic be "rated-up" just because there's discrimination in it. As the American Library Association says, and FA adopted years ago,
Publishers, librarians, and booksellers do not need to endorse every idea or presentation they make available. It would conflict with the public interest for them to establish their own political, moral, or aesthetic views as a standard for determining what should be published or circulated. Publishers and librarians serve the educational process by helping to make available knowledge and ideas required for the growth of the mind and the increase of learning. They do not foster education by imposing as mentors the patterns of their own thought.I just don't understand what makes people think that you have to agree with every idea you're writing about, and if you don't, you need to condemn it within the fic or at the very least in the disclaimer or the author's note, like you need to say. Maybe that's the question I'll submit to ask at the reading in August - what does it take to be a Bad Influence On Readers? I mean, there's a degree of imitatable instruction that perhaps shouldn't be in fics - a step-by-step on hacking into federal government computers or how to make crystal meth. But does anyone decide, "Hey! I've been completely unbiased all my life, but the idea of different continents for different races sounds *groovy*! Sign me up!" just from reading a fanfic?
And if they did, is it the writer's responsibility to write differently, or the reader's responsibility to Not Be Galactically Stupid?
Excerpts from a dialogue I've been having with someone on HPfGU
I suggested, as I am wont to do, that if Draco ever gets over his Supposed To Be Evil thing, then he and Hermione might make a good match in canon, much in a manner that parallels Darcy & Elizabeth in Pride & Prejudice.
Various people who think Draco is Evil And Unredeemable laughed at me, as they are wont to do, which I can deal with. I make my arguments, they say they don't see it in canon, and eventually they might agree on the tiny tiny issues of Should Crouch As Moody Have Smashed Him From Floor to Ceiling (correct answer: no) and Was He Evil When He Reported Harry For Rulebreaking (correct answer: no).
But one person seems to have become incredibly confused about what I was suggesting, and posted:
**I'm fascinated by the widely divergent interpretations of canon on
this list, although I worry that sometimes fanon is making the water
very muddy.**
Erm. In other words, I have become muddied by reading so much fanfic that I now can only see canon through the prism/prison of all the fanfic I've read, when the truth is, (a) I am canon-obsessive with regard to fanfic, such that Lori, Cassie, Eb, Rhysenn and others use me to make sure their fics are canon-compliant, and (b) I;ve actually simply turned by personal take on canon into fanfic.
She replied
> I think that any time people use fanfic examples to support their
> opinions of canon, they are mixing apples and oranges. They are
> taking characters that share the same names as JKR's, making them do
> and say things that JKR has never had them do, and then
> extrapolating arguments from this new, artificial construct.
> Am I the only one bothered by this?
And I said...
I'm not sure what you mean bby "using fanfic in this way". I did not use any
fanfic in my original post when I suggested that in a manner that parallels
Pride & Prejudice, Draco might find it in him to overcome the elements of his
attitude and behaviour that would preclude a relationship with Hermione (see
various Draco Redemption threads). I admit that in rereading the books back in
2000, I did look at the narration and events from other perspectives - as the
book is told almost entirely in third person limited and from Harry's
perspective, we rarely know what the other characters are truly thinking, as
we see everything more or less through Harry's eyes.
Canon itself plays with perspective in a fascinating way - on your first read
of Goblet of Fire, for example, the reader likely sees Moody as a good guy
almost all the way through the book - but on a second read, knowing that Moody
is really Barty Crouch, faithful servant of Voldemort, things he does which at
first seemed delightful or at least benign take on a sinister glow - things
like giving the book to Neville (obviously) but also things like his physical
abuse of Draco (slamming him from floor to ceiling, moreso than the
transfiguration) - and while we have a perfectly good explanation of the
former (he wanted Harry to get access to the gillyweed information), the
"obvious" explanation for the latter is somewhat sketchy. That explanation
would be that he wanted to be on Harry's good side by showing himself to be an
enemy of Draco's. But that doesn't really explain it all, to me - it seemed
clear to me that he had a vendetta against Draco as the wealthy, at least
superficially pampered child whose father was a Death Eater who walked free,
and who kept his stature when even Crouch's own father lost face because of
his familial relationship to a "convicted" Death Eater.
My conclusion is borne out by canon at least as well as any conclusion that
Neville is under a memory charm, but I have seen far fewer claims that making
a conclusion like that about Neville is fanon based or stems from reading too
much fanfic or that those who believe such things are getting confused between
things written by JKR's fans, and by her, herself.
I do admit to being troubled when people garble things from canon and fanfic -
I've seen people wonder whether Orla Quirke or Aiden Lynch were fanfic
characters (they're not, they're both in GoF) or be sure that JKR has said in
the english-language versions of the book that Blaise is a girl or a boy, or
state that Ron and Hermione kissed in GoF. It does bother me when people mix
up their fictional "facts".
However, it never bothers me when fanfic causes someone to think about a
character a little differently, or to view a scene from a different
perspective. JKR makes it SO EASY for us to do so, it's almost as if she wants
us to examine certain things from the book from multiple perspectives! Just
look at the debate about the Shrieking Shack Prank! Snape sees it one way,
Sirius another, and Lupin probably a third. Or even look at Sirius' take on
the real Moody, versus what Snape thinks about him - Sirius says that Moody
didn't use unforgivable curses unless he really had to; anyone want to bet
that Snape thinks Moody may be more like the police officer who says he had to
shoot the unarmed suspect because he *thought* said suspect had a weapon? Is
the latter conjecture? Possibly - but it's an entirely canon-based conclusion,
just like a conclusion that Lily and James died young.
I went back today and paged through Wide Sargasso Sea, Jean Rhys' novel which
has been called a literary masterpiece. It's Jane Eyre fanfic - even the
premise behind Rhys' writing of it is the same as many of those of us who
write fanfic have. I found a comment in a literary journal today that said,
"Rhys was always fascinated by Bronte+IBk-s novel +IBM especially the underlying
story that was never told. Who was Mrs. Rochester, that mad woman locked-up in
the attic? What was Rochester+IBk-s terrible secret? In Antoinette, Rhys has
recreated that imprisoned woman, providing a haunting, tragic portrait of the
fine line between love and madness." It also noted that there has been no 19th
century wife more demonized than Mrs Rochester. By creating a "redemption"
scenario for her, has Jean Rhys somehow ruined Jane Eyre for those who've read
her book? Debatable. Is she making Mrs Rochester do and say things that
Charlotte Bronte never intended? Certainly! Is that wrong or ruinous? Not from
my perspective - but then again, I've always loved Rashamon and Rashamon-esque
things.
To give a less "highbrow" example, look at Anne Rice's Interview With a
Vampire and The Vampire Lestat. The former is entirely from Louis'
perspective, the latter from Lestat's - and the cover, to some extent, the
same scenes and acts. We learn when reading Lestat that many things that Louis
assumed about him - his background, his motives - were incorrect, and it's
fascinating to go back and reread the first book, knowing the other point of
view as you do once you've read the second one.
I am convinced that she thinks I am arguing things based on what I've read in fanfic, or what I've written into fanfic. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just
because someone doesn't see an argument as canon-based doesn't mean that it isn't actually just that. We're all reading the same books; none of us is reading them exactly like anyone else.
What is wrong with speculating, anyway?
I suggested, as I am wont to do, that if Draco ever gets over his Supposed To Be Evil thing, then he and Hermione might make a good match in canon, much in a manner that parallels Darcy & Elizabeth in Pride & Prejudice.
Various people who think Draco is Evil And Unredeemable laughed at me, as they are wont to do, which I can deal with. I make my arguments, they say they don't see it in canon, and eventually they might agree on the tiny tiny issues of Should Crouch As Moody Have Smashed Him From Floor to Ceiling (correct answer: no) and Was He Evil When He Reported Harry For Rulebreaking (correct answer: no).
But one person seems to have become incredibly confused about what I was suggesting, and posted:
**I'm fascinated by the widely divergent interpretations of canon on
this list, although I worry that sometimes fanon is making the water
very muddy.**
Erm. In other words, I have become muddied by reading so much fanfic that I now can only see canon through the prism/prison of all the fanfic I've read, when the truth is, (a) I am canon-obsessive with regard to fanfic, such that Lori, Cassie, Eb, Rhysenn and others use me to make sure their fics are canon-compliant, and (b) I;ve actually simply turned by personal take on canon into fanfic.
She replied
> I think that any time people use fanfic examples to support their
> opinions of canon, they are mixing apples and oranges. They are
> taking characters that share the same names as JKR's, making them do
> and say things that JKR has never had them do, and then
> extrapolating arguments from this new, artificial construct.
> Am I the only one bothered by this?
And I said...
I'm not sure what you mean bby "using fanfic in this way". I did not use any
fanfic in my original post when I suggested that in a manner that parallels
Pride & Prejudice, Draco might find it in him to overcome the elements of his
attitude and behaviour that would preclude a relationship with Hermione (see
various Draco Redemption threads). I admit that in rereading the books back in
2000, I did look at the narration and events from other perspectives - as the
book is told almost entirely in third person limited and from Harry's
perspective, we rarely know what the other characters are truly thinking, as
we see everything more or less through Harry's eyes.
Canon itself plays with perspective in a fascinating way - on your first read
of Goblet of Fire, for example, the reader likely sees Moody as a good guy
almost all the way through the book - but on a second read, knowing that Moody
is really Barty Crouch, faithful servant of Voldemort, things he does which at
first seemed delightful or at least benign take on a sinister glow - things
like giving the book to Neville (obviously) but also things like his physical
abuse of Draco (slamming him from floor to ceiling, moreso than the
transfiguration) - and while we have a perfectly good explanation of the
former (he wanted Harry to get access to the gillyweed information), the
"obvious" explanation for the latter is somewhat sketchy. That explanation
would be that he wanted to be on Harry's good side by showing himself to be an
enemy of Draco's. But that doesn't really explain it all, to me - it seemed
clear to me that he had a vendetta against Draco as the wealthy, at least
superficially pampered child whose father was a Death Eater who walked free,
and who kept his stature when even Crouch's own father lost face because of
his familial relationship to a "convicted" Death Eater.
My conclusion is borne out by canon at least as well as any conclusion that
Neville is under a memory charm, but I have seen far fewer claims that making
a conclusion like that about Neville is fanon based or stems from reading too
much fanfic or that those who believe such things are getting confused between
things written by JKR's fans, and by her, herself.
I do admit to being troubled when people garble things from canon and fanfic -
I've seen people wonder whether Orla Quirke or Aiden Lynch were fanfic
characters (they're not, they're both in GoF) or be sure that JKR has said in
the english-language versions of the book that Blaise is a girl or a boy, or
state that Ron and Hermione kissed in GoF. It does bother me when people mix
up their fictional "facts".
However, it never bothers me when fanfic causes someone to think about a
character a little differently, or to view a scene from a different
perspective. JKR makes it SO EASY for us to do so, it's almost as if she wants
us to examine certain things from the book from multiple perspectives! Just
look at the debate about the Shrieking Shack Prank! Snape sees it one way,
Sirius another, and Lupin probably a third. Or even look at Sirius' take on
the real Moody, versus what Snape thinks about him - Sirius says that Moody
didn't use unforgivable curses unless he really had to; anyone want to bet
that Snape thinks Moody may be more like the police officer who says he had to
shoot the unarmed suspect because he *thought* said suspect had a weapon? Is
the latter conjecture? Possibly - but it's an entirely canon-based conclusion,
just like a conclusion that Lily and James died young.
I went back today and paged through Wide Sargasso Sea, Jean Rhys' novel which
has been called a literary masterpiece. It's Jane Eyre fanfic - even the
premise behind Rhys' writing of it is the same as many of those of us who
write fanfic have. I found a comment in a literary journal today that said,
"Rhys was always fascinated by Bronte+IBk-s novel +IBM especially the underlying
story that was never told. Who was Mrs. Rochester, that mad woman locked-up in
the attic? What was Rochester+IBk-s terrible secret? In Antoinette, Rhys has
recreated that imprisoned woman, providing a haunting, tragic portrait of the
fine line between love and madness." It also noted that there has been no 19th
century wife more demonized than Mrs Rochester. By creating a "redemption"
scenario for her, has Jean Rhys somehow ruined Jane Eyre for those who've read
her book? Debatable. Is she making Mrs Rochester do and say things that
Charlotte Bronte never intended? Certainly! Is that wrong or ruinous? Not from
my perspective - but then again, I've always loved Rashamon and Rashamon-esque
things.
To give a less "highbrow" example, look at Anne Rice's Interview With a
Vampire and The Vampire Lestat. The former is entirely from Louis'
perspective, the latter from Lestat's - and the cover, to some extent, the
same scenes and acts. We learn when reading Lestat that many things that Louis
assumed about him - his background, his motives - were incorrect, and it's
fascinating to go back and reread the first book, knowing the other point of
view as you do once you've read the second one.
I am convinced that she thinks I am arguing things based on what I've read in fanfic, or what I've written into fanfic. Nothing could be further from the truth. Just
because someone doesn't see an argument as canon-based doesn't mean that it isn't actually just that. We're all reading the same books; none of us is reading them exactly like anyone else.
What is wrong with speculating, anyway?
