The most horrific part of the debate last night

[heidi]

And it was a pretty big challenge to choose the most horrific part - but frankly, while there are problems in having teachers who've had no certification process and no training in teaching, especially on an elementary school classroom-teacher level* and there are catastrophic issues with McCain's health care proposals and his complaints about John Lewis just feel weird, none of that demonstrably minimizes the health of girls and women across the country. What's next? Air quotes for "incest" or "rape"?

[Poll #1279744]


* I think there is merit in having middle- and high-school teachers, and in specialty classes, where someone who doesn't have a specific certification but does have a specialty in that area, but given that I've just been through a situation where someone with a teaching degree but no early childhood education was my son's kindergarten teacher (until the principal removed her because she wasn't a good K-level teacher) and was rapidly screwing up his learning experience, I'm not very into it for the K-5 level.

Comments

[likebunnies.livejournal.com]

After going through the fast track teaching courses I went through, I think it would be almost impossible to be in an elementary classroom without any experience in early childhood education. Most of what we learned was focused on that age group because of just how specialized it is in its own right. The program I went through needed even more internship time for that age group. It didn't seem like it would ever be enough!

[stinaleigh.livejournal.com]

http://missysedai.livejournal.com/940056.html

[linaerys.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD. "Health"???? Women don't have health problems they have "health" problems. GOD. How is that a position that someone can even hold???? GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH.

[junesrose.livejournal.com]

Didn't see the debat but I think you summed up it right there for me. Thanks.

[annearchy.livejournal.com]

McCain made me want to puke.

[ginsu.livejournal.com]

I completely agree about the air-quotes. Astonishing blunder in what should have been a comeback debate for McCain -- the worst blunder in all the debates so far, I think.

I like what DeviousRogue said about this:

• [Obama's] attempts to find common political ground on the subject of how teens can avoid unintended pregnancies were noble.

• I fear McCain, in discussing this same topic, ironically authorized a late-term abortion of his campaign.

[schmoo999.livejournal.com]

I was putting our eldest daughter to bed when the whole air quotes and women's health came up. Matthew was floored by that and said it was a good thing I wasn't in the room. I was pissed enough with the other stuff. (That Joe the Plumber crap over and over again has me just wanting to smack McCain.)

[gmth.livejournal.com]

This has apparently been debunked: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Joes_registration.html?showall

[moony]

That video made me absolutely incensed. I vented in my LJ.

I am so angry.

[graycie23.livejournal.com]

I only saw the last half hour, but the question about whether Obama or McCain would appoint someone to the Supreme Court based on the appointee's views on abortion really bothered me. I mean, what a loaded question!! Of course they would! And we know how the candidates feel about the issue, which means the question was really more along the lines of, "How good are you at skirting the issue and talking like a politician?"

Meh.

Having said that, Obama had a much better response...ahem =)

[blackink.livejournal.com]

I think McCain had a lot of fantastic points that are being completely overlooked due to Obama's "hero" status. It's rather sad how the country is hero-worshiping this guy who has done nothing to deserve it other than give a few pretty speeches about how he's the best person in the country to be president and knows better than everyone else.

That being said and most bias against Obama aside, the way I took the air quotes is to mean that the majority of women do not have abortions because of their health - they do it as a form of birth control, yet it's still referred to as "women's health". It isn't women's health anymore, it's the health of the baby and the total rejection of the child's right to life without any valid and reasonable justification for it other than "I didn't feel like having/can't afford to have a kid right now".

good point

[lunalovegoddess.livejournal.com]

Exactly. My mom went for her early childhood education degree while I was in high school, so I saw firsthand what her training entailed. Plus, I babysat for my cousins and other children, whose ages ranged from six-month-old twins to ten-year-olds. I thought that I had the basics down, knew first aid and medical terminology, and felt confident in my childcare skills. As the mom of two gifted perfectionists, one of whom has a severe food allergy and fine motor skills issues, I learned pretty quickly that most of our previous interactions with children had not prepared either of us for their specific challenges. We both learned a lot from my daughter.

[pinguthegreek.livejournal.com]

Um, that's why it's necessary to have adequate sex education and access to contraception. It doesn't make it OK to restrict abortion just because it doesn't fit personal principles.

So, so do not agree with you on this. I'm a Brit, but I cannot believe McCain would be so very very stupid. And as much as I disapprove of a lot of reasons for abortion, it's just as awful to condemn a woman to a life she doesn't want just because she was more than slightly stupid. Sorry, heidi8 I just had to say my bit.

[deirdre-c.livejournal.com]

Have you seen this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5IS0PJdE0Cs

YES.

[blackink.livejournal.com]

I never said that access to contraceptives and sex education were evil; on the contrary, I highly agree with you there. But I also believe that it shouldn't be solely up to the schools to provide this either - it's the parents' responsibility to raise their children, not the school's.

In regards to it being okay to restrict abortion just because it doesn't fit "personal principles", I think you'll find that with a lot of pro-lifers, it has absolutely nothing to do with "personal principles" and everything to do with the baby's right to life. Even if it's "only" a fetus at that point, it is still a human being, and the mother had the right to choose whether or not to keep her legs shut (cases of rape notwithstanding, clearly).

It's just awful to condemn a baby to no life at all just because it had the misfortune of being conceived by a careless and selfish woman who isn't willing to face her own responsibilities and face the consequences of her actions. No one is forcing the mother to keep the child - adoption is always an option, and that child has the right to life, even if it might start off rocky. Weighing the effects of nine months of pregnancy in a healthy woman versus the baby's chance at an entire lifetime - sorry, the baby wins.

Life isn't fair, and people are "forced" into situations they don't want to be in all the time. That doesn't justify murder.

Anyway, you're not going to change my mind and I doubt I'm going to change yours, so let's agree to disagree, yeah?

[pinguthegreek.livejournal.com]

I can live with that. The kind of abortion that really distresses me is if a mother is told that there is a possibility of having a child with a level of disability and then they immediately decide to abort. I have a disability and it really upsets me when a woman dismisses the possibility that raising a child with a disability without even thinking about it. And the adoption thing makes me nod my head as a woman who cannot conceive herself.

I find it fascinating that the abortion issue is so much higher up the agenda in the States than over here. Even if we disagree, it's still a good thing to hear each others' opinions, yes ?

I am ashamed....

[huntress69.livejournal.com]

I was so damn busy finalizing a PowerPoint presentation for school that I forgot all about the debate. Yeah, I know, bad me. Do you know where I can view the whole thing? Also I was in 7-11 today, got a cup of coffee with "OBAMA 2008" on it. I didn't really want the coffee at that moment (I had a full mug in my car) but I couldn't resist.

[flourish.livejournal.com]

and the mother had the right to choose whether or not to keep her legs shut

I'm sorry, but I just want to point out that you might not want to use that kind of phrasing. On the one hand, I understand that you feel very passionate about this issue, but to me it reads like "slut-shaming" and I have a very strong reaction to that.

I realize that this all comes down to a question of when a fetus counts as human - at what point a fetus is in fact a life. I also realize that, if I believed a fetus was a human being at an earlier stage than I do, I would be vastly angry at the possibility that abortion would be legal - because I would see it as equivalent to murder. I am not trying to say that you shouldn't feel emotional about this issue.

Nevertheless, when you use phrases like "had a choice to keep her legs shut," it makes me think that you aren't just angry about women choosing to abort, you're actually angry at women for having sex in the first place - and that makes it easier to dismiss your arguments as rooted in fear of and anger at female sexuality.

[flourish.livejournal.com]

I had a lot of "OMGWTFBBQ" moments, but another of my big ones was McCain saying he was proud of the people at his rallies. I couldn't believe that he was endorsing the "kill him" shouts. That honestly made me feel sick inside. Normally I do not think of McCain as a bad person, or as a negative role model - at least, I haven't thus far - but that seriously made me think again. How can anyone stand by? Obama denounced Ayers on air; McCain could denounce the right wing racists on air.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

He was speaking specifically of the health of a woman who's seeking an abortion to preserve her health, not women's health in general. He seems to think that the exception mandated in Planned Parenthood v Casey back in 1992 that abortions should be allowed in the second and third trimester "for pregnancies endangering a woman's life or health" "stretches" things so women would lie to claim there's a health issue even if there isn't. Which is pretty libelous to both women, and doctors.

[linaerys.livejournal.com]

I do know that, but someone who would put airquotes around women's health in one circumstance probably holds that opinion in other areas as well.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

That being said and most bias against Obama aside, the way I took the air quotes is to mean that the majority of women do not have abortions because of their health - they do it as a form of birth control, yet it's still referred to as "women's health".

No, it isn't referred to as "women's health", at least it isn't in the courts. The language about abortion being legal throughout a pregnancy if abortion is necessary to protect the woman's life or health comes directly from Planned Parenthood v Casey, which included

a confirmation of the State's power to restrict abortions after viability, if the law contains exceptions for pregnancies endangering a woman's life or health

Planned Parenthood of Southeastern Pa. v. Casey, 505 U.S. 833 (1992), quoting Roe v Wade

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

I did. Breaks my heart.

[sundancekid.livejournal.com]

ILU.

[blackink.livejournal.com]

Agreed! Hearing others' opinions is always a good thing. :)

That is especially upsetting, I agree. For me, personally, the touchy issue comes up with my mother having been told to abort me by her doctors for her health. They were right - I could have killed her - but the real issue for me is the fact that I was born in the second trimester, at the same place in development where some babies are aborted.

Also, my brothers are adopted, so I've seen the benefits of that as well. I just honestly cannot comprehend why any human being would do something so heinous as aborting an innocent child for no reason other than 'I don't want to deal with it right now'. It's very frustrating for me and saddens me greatly to hear excuses like that, along with 'I don't want to be a mother'. I can completely understand aborting for health issues and in cases of rape, though I would never personally do that myself. It's when abortion is used as a means of birth control that I'm really concerned with.

Anyway, thank you for the civil discussion! :) Usually this sort of thing degenerates so quickly into mud-slinging when both parties are completely unmovable that there really isn't a point to it.