If you don't like AU's..... Why not?

[heidi]

I've been working on things for next Saturday's panel at Prophecy on the Future of Fandom, which led to emmagrant01 and I talking about a Spring, 2003 thread on FA about "everything becoming AU after OotP" and she has started a nifty discussion about the issue over here.

And I just asked this of someone else on my flist who says that "staying canon-based" (to paraphrase) is important to her.

I've asked about this on FA and LJ in the past but not for years and the composition of my flist is different than it was and now we have a closed canon so....

How, now that we are in the presence of a complete(-ish) canon, do you feel about writing and/or reading fics where romantic pairings play any role, even if it's just background?

How does JKR's statement about basically changing her mind - or possibly it's better to phrase it as "becoming less rigid" or "becoming more open to other options" - regarding Neville/Luna impact your feelings, if they do at all?

If you don't like AU's, why is hewing to canon important to you?

If you didn't like AU's before but don't want to accept 100% of the contents of the Epilogue, or the character deaths, what are you doing about it?

For me, I've never thought that a fanfic could be canon - it can hew to it as closely as an author wishes, but it can't be canon because none of us are JKR. And reading an AU versus "canon-verse" has never mattered to me, but I've also always loved AU novels in general - things like Robert Rankin and Harry Turtledove and Julian May - so loving AUs of the Potterverse has always been natural to me, but I know a lot of people don't feel that way, and I'm curious as to the reasons why.

Do you see a stigma against AU's in the HP fandom and if so, why? Do you have a stigma against AU's in the HP fandom and if so, why?

Comments

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

I ever expected fanfiction to be anything other than AU, frankly. I think I might like AU stuff more now that there's no question about what's really going to happen in canon. What remains is to challenge canon and look at the what ifs.

I dunno, I'm not a fan of the epilogue, but it wouldn't stop me from reading/writing fics that don't presume it. 19 years is a long time, all kinds of things could happen in there. I have to read that epilogue again to see if it's possible to read the ships as no longer current...I mean, you could have an amicable relationship with your ex, couldn't you? ;)

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I do see a stigma against AUs in this fandom. I think it's because I came to HP from a fandom that welcomed AUs and even ARs in which the main characters were taken completely out of the canon universe and put in another place and time. Sometimes their names were even changed, so that if you stumbled across the fic out of context, you might think it was original, but the characterizations were still very recognizable as the canon characters. It's hard to imagine a fic like that being widely accepted and praised in HP.

I like AUs because they can be great ways to explore the characters . I'm not sure why they're so stigmatized in this fandom, but perhaps it was partly because the canon was open before. But then, having an open canon didn't stop the BtVS fandom from embracing AUs. Of course, there were canonical AUs in the Buffyverse, so maybe it was more accepted for that reason.

I'm wondering if people are going to start to insist that writing any non-canonical pairings is AU. That hasn't been an issue in the past AFAIK, even with slash.

FTR, I don't necessarily see ignoring the epilogue as writing AU. I think a basic requirement of AU is that you ignore a major event in canon that affects the course of the plot, like Harry's sorting, or Dumbledore's death. As far as I'm concerned, canon ends with "The Flaw in the Plan", and the Epilogue is just JKR's speculation on what the future holds. If I ignore that, it doesn't affect the plot of the book, of that makes sense.

[ozratbag2.livejournal.com]

Interesting questions - here's my 10 cents worth. :p

How, now that we are in the presence of a complete(-ish) canon, do you feel about writing and/or reading fics where romantic pairings play any role, even if it's just background?

Good stories are good stories be they purchased or gathered for free online via the HP fandom. I read just about anything, though I've never read much slash - it just doesn't do anything for me. *shrug*
I do ship SS/HG which turns quite a few people off, but I dislike teacher/student fics, though I've read some good ones of those as well (that probably makes me a hypocrite). I also like gen fics and have written as well as read many of them. I really enjoy a good story with a lot of character analysis. If that then ends up as a defined ship, that's fine. It's the writing that grabs my attention initially and the need to see the end of the journey that keeps me reading.

How does JKR's statement about basically changing her mind - or possibly it's better to phrase it as "becoming less rigid" or "becoming more open to other options" - regarding Neville/Luna impact your feelings, if they do at all?

JKR not tying up loose ends that she has said previously would be explained in the 7th book - and then didn't touch upon - is what has annoyed me so much about the last book. After such a long series, I would have like a more complete canon, even if it was detrimental to fandom. I don't mind Neville/Luna nor whatever other pairings JKR set into concrete as canon.

...For me, I've never thought that a fanfic could be canon - it can hew to it as closely as an author wishes, but it can't be canon because none of us are JKR. ...

Exactly. Writing character portrayals as close to their canon equivalents is important to me, but I've never been under any illusions that my favoured ship would ever be canon. Writing fanfiction is extrapolating away from the canon to other less defined scenarios. It's a chance to put the characters through hoops that I know full well JKR will never do, nor has done.

That doesn't decrease the validity of the stories and artwork, but anything fandom is, and always has been AU.

Do you see a stigma against AU's in the HP fandom and if so, why?

I have never really understood the dislike of AU stories given the above reasons, but I think it has more to do with a mix-up with crap fic/Mary-Sue fics as opposed to those who are rigorous in their research and try as hard as they can to tell an entertaining story in and around a known canon universe. I think that's the stigma aspect, but then I also think there will be those who have always shipped Harry/Ginny and Ron/Hermione etc, who will be more likely to disregard fic that goes outside their canon ships. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[trinity_clare]

I think the stigma against AU is aimed more at stories that say "Spoilers through OotP, but Sirius didn't die BECAUSE I SAID SO" than stories that leave off at a certain place. I either need a reason for something to have changed, or I need a clean break with canon. I've got a couple of WiPs that I'm writing purely for my own satisfaction, so I feel fine about saying "AU after OotP, but with elements of the next books worked in" because my plot isn't compatible with canon elements of HBP and DH. To me, ships are a character concern, not a plot concern, so if I'm reading/writing a non-canon ship, I have to see the character arc that gets me there for it to really satisfy me.

The hardest thing to write - and the most rewarding to read - is the AU that deviates from canon at a very specific moment and then explores the repercussions of that change. *cough*StealingHarry*cough*

[ginsu.livejournal.com]

you could have an amicable relationship with your ex, couldn't you?

Harry sighed contentedly, looking back over the years. Ginny's dream wedding had been succeeded, ten years later, by his own dream divorce. All was well.

[slytherincesss.livejournal.com]

I can understand wanting to "remain canon-based." However, what that means to me is that I prefer to challenge myself and incorporate canon-based characterizations into my fics. Like, I want someone to read, say, my fic Adjudication and think Wow, that really sounds like [canon!]Ron or I can see Pansy being that way, based on her few appearances in canon. But, you know, even then there is so much room for interpretation! Look at all the different reactions and applications of motivation we're seeing with Snape now -- we've all read the same text, but we see it differently.

I personally have always considered fanfic to be AU in the sense that it's, well, not canon -- so it must be AU! I'm excited about finishing my Ron/Pansy fic, and even more excited at writing this Harry/Draco fic that's been floating around in my head since I wrote an H/D fic for one of the Christmas exchanges. Yes, I like having canon as a reference, but I'm ready to AU like a mofo, baby!

[marie-j-granger.livejournal.com]

How, now that we are in the presence of a complete(-ish) canon, do you feel about writing and/or reading fics where romantic pairings play any role, even if it's just background?

I'm an H/H OTPer, so AU romance is my bread and butter. I wouldn't read fanfic with canon pairings unless they were really incidental to the story.

How does JKR's statement about basically changing her mind - or possibly it's better to phrase it as "becoming less rigid" or "becoming more open to other options" - regarding Neville/Luna impact your feelings, if they do at all?

It doesn't change things for me much because, as I said, canon pairings don't mean all that much to me. It makes me wonder a bit, but I won't be snarky.

If you don't like AU's, why is hewing to canon important to you?

I do like them. AU AUs (where the setting or time period or something else fundamental is changed) can be fun too, as long as the characters are still basically recognizable and the plot is interesting.

If you didn't like AU's before but don't want to accept 100% of the contents of the Epilogue, or the character deaths, what are you doing about it?

I read things whose summaries interest me. That's it. The epilogue lifts out easily as far as I'm concerned.

Do you see a stigma against AU's in the HP fandom and if so, why?

Yes, somewhat, especially since Jo's Leaky/ Mugglenet interview. *rolls eyes* It seems that many HP fans think in a "because Jo said so" sort of way and don't like to see things deviate from her plan.

Do you have a stigma against AU's in the HP fandom and if so, why?

Absolutely not. I encourage them, in fact. :)

[dreamcoat-mom.livejournal.com]

Intriguing set of questions!

I never understood the problem so many seemed to have with AU. Seems to me the job of the fic-writer in a lot of instances is to say, "What if?" then explore that set of possibilities. Brilliant fun! But--to use that format to write a thinly-veiled piss'n'moan about the source material? NOT something I find entertaining in the least. Just my personal preference. If you're writing fic, write an engaging story, not an annoying manifesto.

However, my real passion as a writer is the missing canon scene...filling in the off-camera stuff by fleshing out characters and their backstories--but this little creative corner of the fandom is ALSO widely villified. I'd like to know the reasons for that, as well.

Personally, I don't understand the overall propensity in fandom that insists ANYTHING is "right" or "wrong" or "intelligent" or "stupid" or "unimaginative" or "delusional" or "cliched" or any number of other subjective, inflammatory words. Why are there entire factions that can't discuss anything unless they are in complete, slavish head-bobbing agreement?

I will stick my neck out a little, and say that I have a problem with people who insist that they're AU plot/pairing/whatever is more canon than...erm...canon; the contention that if canon were constructed properly and followed to its "logical" conclusion, and if JKR wasn't such a shallow, unorganized hack, their plot/pairing/whatever would hold water/survive/be universally accepted/change the laws of governement/physics/peace, love & understanding/whatever. R/T shippers took it in the jugular from R/S slashers, as did R/Hr and H/G shippers from Harmonians, D/H and D/G shippers. It was a veritable bloodbath, resulting from what amounted to sour grapes.

I'm sick unto death of personal potshots and fandom rivalries because others prefer a different cup o'tea. Fandom is a fantasy playground. I don't think anyone is required to "accept" canon, nor do I think that loving canon unconditionally as I do is the hallmark of the unwashed village idiot. A fan is not made up of how much nit-picking of minutiae he or she is capable of, nor by how slavishly adoring they are of JKR. A fan is a fan because he/she loves the story, loves the characters, or loves the universe in which they reside.

AU's okay. Canon compliant is okay. Complaining good-naturedly that the story didn't end one's way is okay, as long as one doesn't REAlLY believe that--in that case some serious entitlement issues come into play and a new hobby might be in order if life is to be happy again. Am I 100% happy about every single plot point? Of course not--but it's not my story to write.

An AU fic, on the other hand, IS my story to write, as is the missing canon scene and the completely invented OC introduction. Cool! Vive la fandom!

[rhiannonmr.livejournal.com]

Cruising by way of the D_S here. Fanfiction to me has never ever been about canon. It can't be for the reason you state in your post. We, the fans, are not the creators of the canon, that's JKR.

I never got into the shipping that seems so rampant in certain areas of the fandom. I like the slash but never, ever expected a slash coupling in the canon. As a matter of fact all the pairings I liked came under what I called the 'no way in hell' category as in no way in hell would they ever be canon. So all fanfiction to me is AU no matter how close the writer tries to hew to the canon.

[whispers-scream.livejournal.com]

Here via Daily Snitch.

I have always loved AU, they can be the most entertaining of all, especial ficwriters who take the time to work in canon into their AU world.

I prefer future fic as a rule, though I try to keep an open mind and go for a good read first. I have no real concrete reason why, but I just like to read all the HP characters as adults. But...having written that, I remember this one fanfic on Portkey. Harry was a Slytherin...it was pretty entertaining. I think I'll go look for it and give it a re-read.

Great topic, though I didn't have much to contribute.

[lump-of-clay.livejournal.com]

I've never had problems with AU's that the first point they become AU is the start of the fic.

AU's with characters completely set in different locations/worlds etc, don't interest me too much. But I've never really bothered to try and read them, so I don't know if I would like them.

[penhaligonblue.livejournal.com]

I think my main issue with AU fic is that, for me, it seems to defeat the concept of fanfiction. What excites me about fanfiction is that an author has already given you a world to work in -- a common ground for both the fanfiction writer and reader, since they're both already familiar with that established world. The Harry Potter universe has a huge scope, so I don't think these parameters are all that limiting. I kind of feel that, if you want to write something totally counter-canon, why not just write original fiction?

That said, I have read and enjoyed one AU fic (namely, Stealing Harry (http://sam-storyteller.livejournal.com/2005/07/07/) by sam_storyteller). I think that what made this work for me (besides its excellent writing) was the fact that the author references events as they play out in canon. The fic's story actually does take place alongside that of the Harry Potter series

[bkdelong.livejournal.com]

"As far as I'm concerned, canon ends with "The Flaw in the Plan", and the Epilogue is just JKR's speculation on what the future holds. If I ignore that, it doesn't affect the plot of the book, of that makes sense."

But Jo's the author of this fictional universe. How can something she pen be mere speculation? She gave no indication that the "19 years later" was mere speculation - in subsequent interviews she states that what occurred in the Epilogue was but a taste of what happens going on to detail the trio's jobs and what other folks are doing.

It's her story and her universe. I like to think that gives her the authority to dictate what's canon and for us to express what we wished had happened.

[mincot.livejournal.com]

I don't mind an A/U in certain circumstances. Fics written before the end of the series are, of course, generally now A/U or at least not completely canon-compliant. A/Us that are carefully written and which do not violate Rowling's essential world are okay--they let authors play with "what if" scenarios.

In this fandom, however, there are many people who seem to have fallen in love with THEIR fiction, and critique Rowling because she didn't write the books the way THEY wanted them to be written. Many of these protestors seem to me to have misunderstood some level of characterization, culture, etc. in some fundamental way. It's those A/Us wherein the authors claim to understand JKR's characters better than she oes, o\or who simply write A/Us because they can't be bothered to deal with canon as it is, or who write the "But in this story McGonagall isn't an animagus, just because it wouldbe KEWL" stories, that have given AU's a bad name. BAsically, well-done AUs are fine. Using A.U as a code for sloppiness, incapacity to read, or imagination is not.

[hymenchan.livejournal.com]

I have something against AU because suddenly anything is possible and the realism and gone and I revel in the challenge that sticking to canon represents. If that challenge is gone, it becomes boring and everything is fair game which is just... eh. :\

[amanuensis1.livejournal.com]

I don't hate AUs, but I do like to try to work within the constraints of canon if I can because it feels like one is trying to play by the rules. Sometimes canon messes with one's inspiration too badly for one to stick to the rules, and there's nothing wrong with that, but it may limit readers who don't feel the need for that particular rule to be broken (for their reading pleasure, that is).

I consider AR to be completely different from AU, mind. AR is a transposition rather than a change, and I love to watch/create that transposition.

[jandjsalmon.livejournal.com]

I SOO agree with you on the idea that fanfic isn't ever going to be canon - How close it is to canon depends on how close the writer can write to canon - but it's never going to be 100%.

I write Draco/Ginny. My Draco is NOT canon. JKR writes him as a coward. I just don't see him that way. That's just an example of how even if I wanted to write the closest to canon thing EVER I would still get Draco wrong. He's not a 'bad' guy to me... just a 'wicked' guy. You see the difference?

How I'm going to deal with closed canon?

Warning/Possible Spoilers: EWE (Epilogue, What Epilogue?)

[victorialupin.livejournal.com]

I do like AUs, but the difference is that for me they have to be AUs in the traditional sense, meaning that canon splits off at some point and changes. I'm also open to things which I don't actually think happen in canon but still feel true to the nature of the world and the characters. Off the top of my head, something like MWPP running a secret gambling ring at Hogwarts. I doubt it happened, because I don't think she's thought out their exploits that much, but it seems like something they might do.

The point where I draw the line for AU is when it stops feeling true to the spirit of canon. Something like "Harry and Draco take salsa lessons." It's not that I don't think H/D could work in an AU, but I often come across stories like this where, try as I might, I cannot see the resemblance to canon. Names aside, the characters are completely different, and the Wizarding World is either never mentioned or only glossed over. That's when I have a problem with the stories, because I don't see the point. If you're not going to write anything resembling canon, why write fan fiction at all? Why not just write an original piece about two guys named Bob and Joe who take dance lessons?

BTW, I'll be a Prophecy and I hope I have time to see that panel. :)

[nicolen.livejournal.com]

Here via Hogwarts Today.

I love AUs. As a writer they terrify me as it means that I may not have the safety net of canon to fall back on when I get myself muddled as to where I am.

I love to read AU's, but the characters have to be recognisable as they are in canon, or at least be believeable. One of my favourite fics ever involves Sirius remaining as the Potter's secret-keeper and goes from there. They've all got different personalities than in canon, but they're still recognisable as James, Harry, Sirius etc. I'm not as fond of AU's where the writer will completely alter a character just to make them fit into their storyline - there's usually another canon character that can be eased into the role needed after all...

[sicaria0.livejournal.com]

Personally, I dislike AUs. I started reading fandom because I was in love with the universe the JKR created.

Even when I began to read slash and came to prefer slash pairings over the canon ones, I felt that there was enough freedom for fic authors to explain how the relationship came about without being AU. Even after the epilogue, I've read a couple slash fics where there was infidelity, divorce, etc. to free characters and place them in relationships we preferred. It's not a perfect fix, but I still think it's better than AU.

In my opinion, the more AU a fic becomes, the farther it strays from the original characterization. Events are different, sometimes people are different and ignoring or inserting entire events would change how these characters that we know, act.

Also, I have a bad opinion of AUs from the LOTR fandom. Tolkien just about closed that entire book off for us, including detailed histories of the characters. However, eager fic writers would often create AUs, insert themselves into the story, and generally create bad fics.

My opinion is that you should stick with what's been given. Create new events, give new motivations, whatever. But if you're really going to alter the universe enough for a fic to qualify as AU (perhaps that's another question right there), create your own characters and own universe.

However...after DH, I am kind of hesitant about new fics. My favorite characters are either dead or married. Maybe for short one-shots or smut fics, I can suspend my disbelief and pretend I'm reading the fic before DH was ever released, before there were Deathly Hallows, or anything else... We'll see, I suppose. Though I think Rowling provided us with plenty of 'missing scenes' and under-developed characters in DH for fic material.

To sum it up, from early on, AU has been associated with bad fics in my mind because of the LotR fandom. That, and I think authors can creatively deal with character deaths or commitments and get around canon if they need to without becoming completely AU. It will be harder now after DH and the epilogue, but it was possible before then, and it's still possible now.

[slythhearted.livejournal.com]

How, now that we are in the presence of a complete(-ish) canon, do you feel about writing and/or reading fics where romantic pairings play any role, even if it's just background?

My ships (across 90% of my fandoms) are non canon. I believe they are canon-consistent ie there is enough supporting material in the text for my imagination to work with, but I've always known that Draco was as unlikely to win his man, as McKay and the Lt. Col were to go at it like crazed weasels in the gate room. I've managed this long working with subtext that I don't feel the need to have my reading preferences validated by the text.

How does JKR's statement about basically changing her mind - or possibly it's better to phrase it as "becoming less rigid" or "becoming more open to other options" - regarding Neville/Luna impact your feelings, if they do at all?

It has more to do with lessening my annoyance at her slamming the door against people's imaginations than it does with impacting how I read fanfic.

If you don't like AU's, why is hewing to canon important to you?

I happen to like AU's but I'm going to answer this anyway. For me it comes down to the quality of writing. For an AU to work the characters or situations have to be recognisable to me as the ones found in canon. I'll read a morally ambiguous Draco being sorted in Ravenclaw (and love it), but simply rewriting the books with Ron as the prejudiced bad guy and Draco as the loyal sidekick with a heart of gold is likely to have me hitting the back button.

If you didn't like AU's before but don't want to accept 100% of the contents of the Epilogue, or the character deaths, what are you doing about it?

Epilogue? What epilogue?

Do you see a stigma against AU's in the HP fandom and if so, why? Do you have a stigma against AU's in the HP fandom and if so, why?

Seconding the comment about the stigma being attached to the quality of writing rather than the genre as a whole.

I have seen posts about how DH will be the death of fandom now that JKR has closed the door on people's ships and pet characterisations. I disagree with this as the only way I could see it happening is if we closed the door to the concept of AU entirely - be they minor AU (AU from the end of HBP etc) or the more ambitious departures (What would have happened if Cedric lived etc). I'm not going to stop questioning, and wondering 'What if?' just because the series has come to a canonical end.

[emmagrant01.livejournal.com]

I just feel that way, and I don't have to justify myself to anyone, honestly. You don't have to read any fic I write that ignores the epilogue, so what does it matter to you how I choose to interpret it? I'm not suggesting that my view is the right one, just that it's how *I* am choosing to proceed.

[jellybellys.livejournal.com]

I for one will have pretty much all my fics turn into AU's now, so I like 'em. ;o) I think if you stay too closely to canon it's either 1. boring 2. occasionally brilliant or 3. just pales to JKR.

The whole point of fanfic is to make up our own little worlds in JKRs. I suppose I'm going to have to edit all my fics at Fiction Alley as AU now?

[chthonya]

For me it depends on the spirit of the AU: I'd be interested in reading, say, fic that kept a canonically dead character alive to explore how new information impacted on his/her relationship with another character, but I wouldn't be too interested if the character was kept alive because the author didn't want JKR to kill him. The plot could be the same, but I'd be wary of the tone.

But I don't think DH has changed my opinion of AUs. Personally I'll avoid contradicting canon facts as far as I'm able, I'll remain open to AUs that are clearly labelled as such, and I'll continue to be irritated by fics that contradict canon without warning or explanation.

That said, if I were a slasher or my favourite character had died, I'd probably be more inclined to go AU myself. But for now all my plot bunnies are feasting in the canon garden.