(no subject)

[heidi]

Well, that discussion is back again.

You know, the one which asks whether a fic should be rated-up if it involves discussion of a subject that is Bad or Negative or involves Evil, like Discrimination or Smoking or Nazis.

To paraphrase, a relative newbie-to-FA asked whether it would be "a bad influence on readers" and thus merit a high rating if a character stated that he believed women and gays should have less rights than others, and that he was antirace mixing (like, not mixed-marriage, but separate continents). And she wanted to know if the higher-rating presumption should be mitigated by her intent to make it clear that she didn't *agree* with said character's rantings.

Obviously, on FA, we don't require a fic be "rated-up" just because there's discrimination in it. As the American Library Association says, and FA adopted years ago,

Publishers, librarians, and booksellers do not need to endorse every idea or presentation they make available. It would conflict with the public interest for them to establish their own political, moral, or aesthetic views as a standard for determining what should be published or circulated. Publishers and librarians serve the educational process by helping to make available knowledge and ideas required for the growth of the mind and the increase of learning. They do not foster education by imposing as mentors the patterns of their own thought.

I just don't understand what makes people think that you have to agree with every idea you're writing about, and if you don't, you need to condemn it within the fic or at the very least in the disclaimer or the author's note, like you need to say. Maybe that's the question I'll submit to ask at the reading in August - what does it take to be a Bad Influence On Readers? I mean, there's a degree of imitatable instruction that perhaps shouldn't be in fics - a step-by-step on hacking into federal government computers or how to make crystal meth. But does anyone decide, "Hey! I've been completely unbiased all my life, but the idea of different continents for different races sounds *groovy*! Sign me up!" just from reading a fanfic?

And if they did, is it the writer's responsibility to write differently, or the reader's responsibility to Not Be Galactically Stupid?

Comments

[aome.livejournal.com]

I just don't understand what makes people think that you have to agree with every idea you're writing about, and if you don't, you need to condemn it within the fic or at the very least in the disclaimer or the author's note, like you need to say.

I put a "Yes, I know the difference between fantasy and reality" A/N in my recent twincest fic, only because I didn't want anyone new to my flist to suddenly go "EWWWW. You approve of twincest???" Well, not in RL, but it's my ficcy guilty pleasure. Can't explain it. F/G, when done right and isn't just pr0n, has the potential to rock my little red socks. But I still don't want to even contemplate Will and Rob getting remotely over-cozy. So, anyway, I put in the disclaimer not because I was worried that someone might read my fic and go "Hey, I think I'll go kiss my twin!" but just that they wouldn't be prepared to drag me off to the loony bin. ;) I'm not going to bother with that A/N when I post the fic to my own website, though (or anywhere else I put it) - it was just for that LJ situation.

As for changing the rating - I think I would adjust it depending on what the issue WAS, and how much maturity I think would be necessary to process what was being discussed. Mostly, though, I'd probably put something at PG (because, well, parental guidance is a generally Good Thing) unless other activity (sexual, drug, etc) or language necessitated something higher.

And I hope to heck I'm not about to get into another heated debate. One is enough tonight. :P

[sparkly-stuff.livejournal.com]

HUH? First off, the Harry Potter books themselves discuss "evil" things like "Discrimination," so naturally fanfiction will cover those topics as well, and there's no reason it should merit a higher rating. If it did, it would be extremely difficult to keep a fic at a G or PG rating. And any reader that feels that an author must hold the same viewpoints as their characters obviously doesn't know the definition of "fiction." That's like saying JK Rowling must be racist, or is trying to promote racism, because she writes characters like the Death Eaters who hold racist philosophies. PLEASE.

I just don't understand what makes people think that you have to agree with every idea you're writing about, and if you don't, you need to condemn it within the fic or at the very least in the disclaimer or the author's note, like you need to say

That reminds me of the fundamentalists demanding that there be a disclaimer for The DaVinci Code movie, stating that it's purely fictional. What for?! And there's nothing more annoying than pedantic books where you're hit over the head with the moral and it's mad Very Obvious who's the Bad Guy and who's the Good Guy and what the consequences will be if you act like the Bad Guy. In good fiction (like HP) it's not always clear, and you're able to make that decision for yourself.

In summary, it is most definitely the reader's job to Not Be Galactically Stupid.

[nyourdrms.livejournal.com]

Having lived in the bible belt for most of my adult life, I find, unfortunately that most of the world belives that what constitutes a "bad influence" is whatever they find offensive.

I was raised in the sixties, free livin, and lovin thinking that would definetely put me on GEE Dubya's most wanted list these days. Vegetable eating, guitar carrying liberals who preached peace and listened to Bob Dylan music. You can't convince me that speaking simply about differences in culture, lifestyle or even about the atrocities or past or society warrent a need for a higher rating.

Now, throw in a good sex scene, a serial killer, or a trio of a different sort and we're talking about something else all together. *chortle*

T

[psychic-serpent.livejournal.com]

I've never understood this attitude about raising the ratings. If you take a look at the HP books and see the ignorant, bigoted things the Dursleys say with regularity it's pretty clear that no one is supposed to think, "Hey, that Vernon really has it together. I'll also discourage my kid from doing his homework so HE won't turn into a nancy-boy either." Should JKR have some sort of warning on the books about the nonsense spouted by Vernon? I don't think so.

[iscaris.livejournal.com]

I think writers should be able to write whatever they want as long as it's within the constraints of fiction and not, you say, a how-to on bombs or whatever. I mean, bdsm is alternative, incest is illegal in several countries, non-con is outright criminal, but all these shouldn't be dis-included in fics as long as a certain ethical line isn't crossed, such as actually glorifying violence or intolerance as a whole. Characters who do bad things or have subversive ideas as part of telling a story are all creative license and writers should not censor themselves but should put up appropriate warnings. After that it's all caveat lector.

[cleverthylacine]

I don't think writers need to be held, or to hold themselves, responsible for the fact that some people are absolutely fucking batshit. I've written chan--and I've been asked "Don't you worry that some paedophile might be reading your stuff?" No. Those people have been known to get off on the kiddie underwear section of the JC Penney catalogue.

I do think that readers pick up new ideas from fic, or from anything else they read--my readers write to me about some of the religious/historical ideas in my fics. But by and large, readers pick up on the GOOD stuff.

[leni-jess.livejournal.com]

I would have thought there was an urgent necessity for people in all walks of life to Not Be Galactically Stupid. Though this is a good example of where people (including writers) can't necessarily distinguish between fiction and proselytising. It's no one else's responsibility, though, to protect them from their own inability to reason.

[malachan.livejournal.com]

Oh dear. Hear no evil, see no evil etc.

[ex-ajhalluk585.livejournal.com]

Your comment about "Evil, like Discrimination or Smoking or Nazis." reminded me, quite tangentially, about an erratum slip which appeared in the Parish Magazine for an English church some years ago.

"Please note," it ran, "that the topic for Wednesday's Young Wives Group meeting is not "Smoking Drugs" as previously advertised, but "Smocking and Rugs". We apologise for any inconvenience caused by this typographical error."

[kmai.livejournal.com]

To defend "fundamentalists", the book apparently had a statement in the front which says that the ceremonies, practices, rituals, groups, artwork, etc. were researched and factual, even if the story was fictional. (see wikipedia, "The book opens with the claim by Dan Brown that "all descriptions of artwork, architecture, documents [...] and secret rituals in this novel are accurate";") Which was a lie, since it depicted many religious practices and rituals incorrectly. It was not just an issue of it being "fiction", or that the lie did not "hit you over the head", but that the book itself was claiming to be more than just fiction. So it was an issue of false disclaimers, not a lack of them.

(I don't know anything about the davinci code personally, though, since I hate conspiracies. I grabbed this info from wikipedia).

[aillil.livejournal.com]

And if they did, is it the writer's responsibility to write differently, or the reader's responsibility to Not Be Galactically Stupid?

When reading the warning labels on a microwave, any bloody car mirror, disposable coffee-to-go cups, or the rulings of the courts regarding smoking etc., it is disturbingly easy to come to the conclusion that it's the writer's responsibility...

[jayabear.livejournal.com]

I just don't understand what makes people think that you have to agree with every idea you're writing about, and if you don't, you need to condemn it within the fic or at the very least in the disclaimer or the author's note, like you need to say.

One of the first fics I wrote involved drink spiking and a possible consequence of this. Most of the people who read it liked it, but I had one person who took it personally, and attacked me over it, as if it was my personal views. That really bugged me (well, that and they weren't logged in and didn't leave an email for me to reply to). Because they completely missed the point of the fic and then had the nerve to act like I was some kind of freak for writing something (for me at least, then) unusual.

I think it's the readers responsibility not be to be Galactically Stupid. You can't please everyone when you right. For every, "I love the way you've discussed this matter/situation/event/person in your fic" comment, you'll get at least one "you must be some kind of sick nazi/freak/etc" comment. In addition to being really annoyingly unconstructive, it basically tells me that the person, well, really hasn't either the ability, or the inclination to look for the underlaying themes of the piece.

But sadly people are not responsible for their own stupidity. Recently in the news a man successfully sued his Shire for the injuries he sustained when he crashed his car. He was driving above the speed limit, three times over the recommended blood alcohol level, when his car skidded off the road and crashed. And he managed to win. Why? Because the Shire had been resurfacing the road, had signs saying such, but his lawyers argued that if it had not been happening, he would not have crashed. O.o;;

I don't get people. I really don't.

~j