July 2, 2004
Jul. 2nd, 2004 11:03 am![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
heidiSo, have any of you ever seen a statement from JKR where she said that it was against her wishes for people to write slash fanfic, discuss whether any characters in the books are/were gay, or write fanfics, or discuss the possibility of and issues surrounding student (or former student)/teacher relationships?
Because someone on HpfGU-OTC is very sure that JKR wishes that slash not be written or discussed, and that she also wishes that student/teacher romances not be written or discussed, and that FA has "no regard for JKR's wishes and are filling their site with slash and student teacher pairings."
And, well, even though I've read every interview with the woman since, um, 1997, because of my work with TLC and the Quick Quotes section (which I helped Mike the Goat with even before it became a part of TLC), it's possible that she said it somewhere and I just haven't seen it, but this random person on HpfGU-OTC has.
Anyone? Bueller?
And no, I didn't post this so people could descend on HpfGU-OTC and post replies to that post, or to the subsequent one here - I posted
How do *you* know what JKR's wishes are in terms of fanfic?
Do you really think that someone who praised Lolita, as a novel and
a work of art, actually believes that discussion of
intergenerational interpersonal relationships, or even "romance",
believes that we are going against her wishes for allowing
discussion of such things in narrative and "essay"/post form?
In case you didn't know, the full quote re Lolita is "There are two
books whose final lines make me cry without fail, irrespective of
how many times I read them, and one is Lolita. There is so much I
could say about this book. There just isn't enough time to discuss
how a plot that could have been the most worthless pornography
becomes, in Nabakov's hands, a great and tragic love story, and I
could exhaust my reservoir of superlatives trying to describe the
quality of the writing."
Look - she described it as a "love story" - now tell me where and
how and why you can presume a 100% slam by her on intergenerational
relationships.
Now, in terms of slash fics, do you *really* think that someone
whose stories explore themes of tolerance and understanding in such
depth and with such cleverness is homophobic? Do you really believe
that nobody is gay in the wizarding world? How could such a thing be
possible, when around 10% of all human beings are gay?
Apart from that, FictionAlley has a wonderful relationship with
Warner Bros. They've sent us hundreds of dollars in merchandise to
use in a contest that we just wrapped up, and yes, they and JKR's
people are familiar with the types of fics we host on FA. I have, in
fact, spoken with people on JKR's team about the fics we host, and
they have *never* asked us to remove a fic. Never, in the three
years that we've been online. Never in the two-plus years that we've
worked with them.
And given that the first contact we had with WB was after the New
York Times ran a front page article which highlighted, a story that
we host on FA where "Harry Potter and his schoolboy nemesis, Draco
Malfoy, grow up to be gangsters and gay lovers in London."
Yes, because of that article in the Times, WB contacted FA, and
asked us to be an associate of their online store. We respect WB; we
respect JKR's people - and I like to think they respect us enough to
tell us if they have a problem with anything we have on the site.
And don't forget - FA is a discussion site, as well as a fanfic
site - that means that, like HpfGU, we allow discussion of all sorts
of topics (although we do allow movie and book discussions to
overlap, if the context is appropriate) - should HPfGU also bar
certain topics because a random person or two thinks that they are
against JKR's wishes, without any reason to actually think that?
HPfGU allows discussion of same-gender relationships, and, for that
matter, intergenerational relationships. Do you really find
McGonnagal/Snape so horrifying? What about Arabella Figg/Remus
Lupin? Those are intergenerational ships - and McGonnagal even
*taught* Snape. And you really think those things are horrible? Why?
And do you also tar HpfGU with the broad brush of "defying JKR's
wishes" that you paint FA with?
and > It does seem that FA leans heavily toward slash,
> and that is certainly FA's right, privilege, and direction if that
is
> the preference of FA's marketplace.
First of all, FA has no "marketplace". We host what is submitted to
us, as long as said submission meets the criteria listed here:
http://www.fictionalley.org/submit.html - we don't look at a fic's
theme, and despite some lies that have been told about FA elsewhere,
we do not look to a fic's ship (it used to be common for people to
lie and say that FA wouldn't host R/Hr or H/G fics, fyi).
Second, have you figured out how many fics on FA are slash, as
versus romance-free or "het"? Because if you have - if anyone has -
man, do we need their database or programming skills!
We actually have no idea how many fics of any particular genre FA
hosts. We have no database system in place to track such things. But
a quick glance at the Cruisin' portiong of the "Sorting" section of
FA, which is a forum where people can post links to fics, indicates
that the thread that's post often posted to is Draco/Hermione,
followed by Harry/Draco, then, in descending order, Harry/Hermione,
Draco/Ginny, Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, Remus/Sirius, Snape/Hermione
and Lily/James.
In other words, out of the nine most oft-posted-to fic list threads,
two are slash and one is intergenerationl; none are both. I left off
the tenth most popular, for this separate sentence - it's Tom/Ginny,
with about 100 fics listed, and some people deem it intergeneration
as he's about 50 years older, while other think it's not, as he was
in stasis all these years. I think it's a call based on the specific
story, really, but to each their own.
>I can also understand why some
> writers and readers would prefer a fiction venue where the 'ships
> are "traditional" and seem to be more in keeping with the spirit
of
> HP canon.
But, as you can see from the list above, or even a glance at today's
Blog, FictionAlley certainly hosts "traditional" ships too! I mean,
if someone is so homophobic that they won't let their fics be on a
site that allows slash, too, where are they to go? Mugglenet? They
can't go to Sugarquill, they can't go to Checkmated, they certainly
won't go to Skyehawke, which hosts NC17 fics, too. I think the
problem with being prejudiced and judgmental in this fandom is,
there just are so many places where prejudice and judgmental
behaviours are frowned upon that there's a limited scope for those
who prefer things otherwise.
I just took a glance at the summaries of all the fics FA has
uploaded in the past few days
(http://www.schnoogle.com/blog/index.shtml) and my, are they
diverse! Look at just a few of the selections:
Travel back in time with Roseline Kehst, the newest member of the
Order of the Phoenix, back to her days in Hogwarts. Watch her
relationship with Sirius as it unravels, with humour, passion,
friendship, trust, companionship and, in later days, love. (PG13)
A heart wrenching fic about how tragic events in life can change a
person. Hermione Granger suffers abuse at the hands of Lucius
Malfoy. Draco Malfoy gets caught in the middle. Severus Snape
struggles to save the Hermione he once knew and unwittingly falls in
love with her. (R)
Remus's memories of Sirius, from when they first discovered he was a
werewolf to present time. SB/RL slash. (R)
In Harry's sixth year, he must learn to accept the cards fate has
dealt him. With unexpected new abilities, a new crush, and a
mysterious Veil, this might be one of Harry's most eventful years at
Hogwarts! (PG13)
Harry is back at Hogwarts, but everything is going wrong. What's
really happening, and why are Ron and Hermione being so different?
Why are they crying? H/Hr, Hr/R. (PG13)
She was a bastard daughter, a child that Lucius Malfoy never wanted,
never admitted to having. She didn't fit into his plans and she
wasn't important, she wasn't a part of his life - until she decided
to end it. (PG-13)
Harry finds himself locked in a crowded common room in nothing but
his boxers! Ginny is there and isn't slightly embarrassed. (PG13)
Molly Weasley is writing her thirtieth anniversary letter to Arthur,
but is sidetracked by childhood memories. (PG)
When the young Severus Snape is caught with a secret, experimental
potion, he is obliged to make a deal with James Potter that he will
later come to regret... (PG)
Five young Ravenclaws deal with an unexpected danger, learning that
evil and darkness come in many forms, some more perilous than
others. But when those who must combat this darkness aren't from the
house of lions, where will they find the courage and strength to
fight? And how can one of these Ravenclaws, the son of a great
wizard, find his own identity and his own destiny? (PG13)
***********************************
You want traditional pairings and stuff that reads like canon? You
won't find it in a fic about five young Ravenclaws. But if Harry's
in his boxers in front of Ginny, is that really so different from
being caught starkers by Moaning Myrtle? And while you seem to think
that JKR has never
> hinted at relationships between
> professors, or between professors and students...
She has made side references to relationships between professors -
Dumbledore's comment about Pomfrey's comment about his earmuffs, the
little kiss Hagrid gives McGonnagal, the whole Hagrid/Maxime thing -
aren't those relationships between professors?
And Myrtle is a good fifty years older than Harry, hasn't been in
stasis like Riddle, and is still *oggling* him and Cedric in GoF.
Yes, she hasn't grown up, and no, there is no actual touching, but
it's sneakily and cleverly referred to in the book. And while there
may not be any "on the page" gay characters yet, I think Dudley's
obnoxious question to Harry about Cedric ("Who's Cedric? Your
boyfriend?") lets the reader know that as Dudley's being homophobic
or at least snarking about the possibility of Harry being gay, then
it's not a good/nice/smart thing to do.
> Those who
> write fanfic that follows the example she has set, and prefer not
to
> commingle it with fic that deviates so drastically from it, cannot
be
> faulted if they would like to choose another place to share it
than
> FA. They have a choice, also.
Yes, people have a choice to support censorship of thoughts and
ideas. People can refuse to look at what the author herself has said
about intergenerational "love stories" and presume that JKR thinks
that all writings about such things are Bad Bad Bad. But if they
want their fics hosted on sites that only host things that are 100%
in keeping with canon, they ought to start their own archives,
because they won't find such an attitude at any of the reasonably-
sized archives in this fandom.
> No, they're not horrible, but in those examples you are talking
about
> relationships between adults. If it's a Snape/Harry or even Mme.
> Hooch/Ron, we are looking at relationships between adults and
minors,
> which in most of the U.S. is illegal, even if it is completely
> consensual. It certainly is not illegal to write fanfics about it,
> but again, it may be the preference of some writers to choose not
to,
> and also to choose not to associate their work with those who do.
Luckily, JKR doesn't feel the same way. People are certainly
entitled to archive their fics anywhere they like, but they should
justify their own personal decision by claiming that JKR wishes that
people not write fanfic that contains gay characters, or that JKR
wishes that people not write about intergenerational romances, or
imply that JKR believes that intergenerational romances are
inherently Bad Bad Bad.
Furthermore, while the age of consent for gay relationships was 18
in the UK until the late 90s (ie after the series is expected to be
over) the age of consent in many states in the US and all throughout
the UK to consent to heterosexual sex is a bit younger than that.
Yes, of course, it is *wrong* for a teacher to seduce a student, but
there's a number of fics on FA that deal with the "wrongness" issue,
and others that try to explain it (from today's list,
http://www.astronomytower.org/authors/chrmisha/OTWT01.html is one
such example) and there's a pretty large number that find 22 year
old Hermione falling in love with 38 year old Remus Lupin or Severus
Snape - so, in those cases, the student is a former student, and is
now an adult.
Then again, I had a conversation once with someone who said that she
didn't think a certain site would ever archive a Bill Weasley/Remus
Lupin fic set during book 5 - not because it was slash, but because
it was intergenerational. As this was before JKR's infamous Maths
Issue this spring, I was under the impression, as were hundreds of
others, that they were perhaps six years apart, and Bill had been a
first year in Lupin's last. Who's right in this calculation>
> Nobody's suggesting that anything anybody wants to post to FA
should
> be suppressed. FictionAlley seems to be a perfect example of
freedom
> of expression and it should be encouraged. But please don't make
the
> mistake of thinking that if somebody doesn't care for what you're
> offering and wants to "do business" elsewhere, that is in any way
> censorship or suppression of your forum.
I wasn't trying to make the claim that it was such censorship or
suppression, and I am sorry that it came off that way.
However, I continue to be astonished that people who are fans of a
book about tolerance - where it's commonplace to see interracial
romances that would have been deemed shocking thirty - or even
twenty - years ago, can demonstrate intolerance to the degree that
they are shocked SHOCKED! that there may be gay witches and wizards.
That in a world where the life expectancy seems to be over 100
years, there wouldn't be intergenerational romances. That people
should be allowed to write about bad things, and things they don't
agree with - JKR does, so why shouldn't her fans?
As JKR said in 2000 (http://www.the-leaky-
cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-cbc-
rogers.htm), "Sometimes I get asked 'What would be your recipe for a
happier life?' And I've always said 'A bit more tolerance from all
of us.'" already...
But I just feel like people making up comments by JKR to justify their own personal preferences can be a little overmuch.
Now, I'm off to help Paul get FA back up. Sigh!
Because someone on HpfGU-OTC is very sure that JKR wishes that slash not be written or discussed, and that she also wishes that student/teacher romances not be written or discussed, and that FA has "no regard for JKR's wishes and are filling their site with slash and student teacher pairings."
And, well, even though I've read every interview with the woman since, um, 1997, because of my work with TLC and the Quick Quotes section (which I helped Mike the Goat with even before it became a part of TLC), it's possible that she said it somewhere and I just haven't seen it, but this random person on HpfGU-OTC has.
Anyone? Bueller?
And no, I didn't post this so people could descend on HpfGU-OTC and post replies to that post, or to the subsequent one here - I posted
How do *you* know what JKR's wishes are in terms of fanfic?
Do you really think that someone who praised Lolita, as a novel and
a work of art, actually believes that discussion of
intergenerational interpersonal relationships, or even "romance",
believes that we are going against her wishes for allowing
discussion of such things in narrative and "essay"/post form?
In case you didn't know, the full quote re Lolita is "There are two
books whose final lines make me cry without fail, irrespective of
how many times I read them, and one is Lolita. There is so much I
could say about this book. There just isn't enough time to discuss
how a plot that could have been the most worthless pornography
becomes, in Nabakov's hands, a great and tragic love story, and I
could exhaust my reservoir of superlatives trying to describe the
quality of the writing."
Look - she described it as a "love story" - now tell me where and
how and why you can presume a 100% slam by her on intergenerational
relationships.
Now, in terms of slash fics, do you *really* think that someone
whose stories explore themes of tolerance and understanding in such
depth and with such cleverness is homophobic? Do you really believe
that nobody is gay in the wizarding world? How could such a thing be
possible, when around 10% of all human beings are gay?
Apart from that, FictionAlley has a wonderful relationship with
Warner Bros. They've sent us hundreds of dollars in merchandise to
use in a contest that we just wrapped up, and yes, they and JKR's
people are familiar with the types of fics we host on FA. I have, in
fact, spoken with people on JKR's team about the fics we host, and
they have *never* asked us to remove a fic. Never, in the three
years that we've been online. Never in the two-plus years that we've
worked with them.
And given that the first contact we had with WB was after the New
York Times ran a front page article which highlighted, a story that
we host on FA where "Harry Potter and his schoolboy nemesis, Draco
Malfoy, grow up to be gangsters and gay lovers in London."
Yes, because of that article in the Times, WB contacted FA, and
asked us to be an associate of their online store. We respect WB; we
respect JKR's people - and I like to think they respect us enough to
tell us if they have a problem with anything we have on the site.
And don't forget - FA is a discussion site, as well as a fanfic
site - that means that, like HpfGU, we allow discussion of all sorts
of topics (although we do allow movie and book discussions to
overlap, if the context is appropriate) - should HPfGU also bar
certain topics because a random person or two thinks that they are
against JKR's wishes, without any reason to actually think that?
HPfGU allows discussion of same-gender relationships, and, for that
matter, intergenerational relationships. Do you really find
McGonnagal/Snape so horrifying? What about Arabella Figg/Remus
Lupin? Those are intergenerational ships - and McGonnagal even
*taught* Snape. And you really think those things are horrible? Why?
And do you also tar HpfGU with the broad brush of "defying JKR's
wishes" that you paint FA with?
and > It does seem that FA leans heavily toward slash,
> and that is certainly FA's right, privilege, and direction if that
is
> the preference of FA's marketplace.
First of all, FA has no "marketplace". We host what is submitted to
us, as long as said submission meets the criteria listed here:
http://www.fictionalley.org/submit.html - we don't look at a fic's
theme, and despite some lies that have been told about FA elsewhere,
we do not look to a fic's ship (it used to be common for people to
lie and say that FA wouldn't host R/Hr or H/G fics, fyi).
Second, have you figured out how many fics on FA are slash, as
versus romance-free or "het"? Because if you have - if anyone has -
man, do we need their database or programming skills!
We actually have no idea how many fics of any particular genre FA
hosts. We have no database system in place to track such things. But
a quick glance at the Cruisin' portiong of the "Sorting" section of
FA, which is a forum where people can post links to fics, indicates
that the thread that's post often posted to is Draco/Hermione,
followed by Harry/Draco, then, in descending order, Harry/Hermione,
Draco/Ginny, Ron/Hermione, Harry/Ginny, Remus/Sirius, Snape/Hermione
and Lily/James.
In other words, out of the nine most oft-posted-to fic list threads,
two are slash and one is intergenerationl; none are both. I left off
the tenth most popular, for this separate sentence - it's Tom/Ginny,
with about 100 fics listed, and some people deem it intergeneration
as he's about 50 years older, while other think it's not, as he was
in stasis all these years. I think it's a call based on the specific
story, really, but to each their own.
>I can also understand why some
> writers and readers would prefer a fiction venue where the 'ships
> are "traditional" and seem to be more in keeping with the spirit
of
> HP canon.
But, as you can see from the list above, or even a glance at today's
Blog, FictionAlley certainly hosts "traditional" ships too! I mean,
if someone is so homophobic that they won't let their fics be on a
site that allows slash, too, where are they to go? Mugglenet? They
can't go to Sugarquill, they can't go to Checkmated, they certainly
won't go to Skyehawke, which hosts NC17 fics, too. I think the
problem with being prejudiced and judgmental in this fandom is,
there just are so many places where prejudice and judgmental
behaviours are frowned upon that there's a limited scope for those
who prefer things otherwise.
I just took a glance at the summaries of all the fics FA has
uploaded in the past few days
(http://www.schnoogle.com/blog/index.shtml) and my, are they
diverse! Look at just a few of the selections:
Travel back in time with Roseline Kehst, the newest member of the
Order of the Phoenix, back to her days in Hogwarts. Watch her
relationship with Sirius as it unravels, with humour, passion,
friendship, trust, companionship and, in later days, love. (PG13)
A heart wrenching fic about how tragic events in life can change a
person. Hermione Granger suffers abuse at the hands of Lucius
Malfoy. Draco Malfoy gets caught in the middle. Severus Snape
struggles to save the Hermione he once knew and unwittingly falls in
love with her. (R)
Remus's memories of Sirius, from when they first discovered he was a
werewolf to present time. SB/RL slash. (R)
In Harry's sixth year, he must learn to accept the cards fate has
dealt him. With unexpected new abilities, a new crush, and a
mysterious Veil, this might be one of Harry's most eventful years at
Hogwarts! (PG13)
Harry is back at Hogwarts, but everything is going wrong. What's
really happening, and why are Ron and Hermione being so different?
Why are they crying? H/Hr, Hr/R. (PG13)
She was a bastard daughter, a child that Lucius Malfoy never wanted,
never admitted to having. She didn't fit into his plans and she
wasn't important, she wasn't a part of his life - until she decided
to end it. (PG-13)
Harry finds himself locked in a crowded common room in nothing but
his boxers! Ginny is there and isn't slightly embarrassed. (PG13)
Molly Weasley is writing her thirtieth anniversary letter to Arthur,
but is sidetracked by childhood memories. (PG)
When the young Severus Snape is caught with a secret, experimental
potion, he is obliged to make a deal with James Potter that he will
later come to regret... (PG)
Five young Ravenclaws deal with an unexpected danger, learning that
evil and darkness come in many forms, some more perilous than
others. But when those who must combat this darkness aren't from the
house of lions, where will they find the courage and strength to
fight? And how can one of these Ravenclaws, the son of a great
wizard, find his own identity and his own destiny? (PG13)
***********************************
You want traditional pairings and stuff that reads like canon? You
won't find it in a fic about five young Ravenclaws. But if Harry's
in his boxers in front of Ginny, is that really so different from
being caught starkers by Moaning Myrtle? And while you seem to think
that JKR has never
> hinted at relationships between
> professors, or between professors and students...
She has made side references to relationships between professors -
Dumbledore's comment about Pomfrey's comment about his earmuffs, the
little kiss Hagrid gives McGonnagal, the whole Hagrid/Maxime thing -
aren't those relationships between professors?
And Myrtle is a good fifty years older than Harry, hasn't been in
stasis like Riddle, and is still *oggling* him and Cedric in GoF.
Yes, she hasn't grown up, and no, there is no actual touching, but
it's sneakily and cleverly referred to in the book. And while there
may not be any "on the page" gay characters yet, I think Dudley's
obnoxious question to Harry about Cedric ("Who's Cedric? Your
boyfriend?") lets the reader know that as Dudley's being homophobic
or at least snarking about the possibility of Harry being gay, then
it's not a good/nice/smart thing to do.
> Those who
> write fanfic that follows the example she has set, and prefer not
to
> commingle it with fic that deviates so drastically from it, cannot
be
> faulted if they would like to choose another place to share it
than
> FA. They have a choice, also.
Yes, people have a choice to support censorship of thoughts and
ideas. People can refuse to look at what the author herself has said
about intergenerational "love stories" and presume that JKR thinks
that all writings about such things are Bad Bad Bad. But if they
want their fics hosted on sites that only host things that are 100%
in keeping with canon, they ought to start their own archives,
because they won't find such an attitude at any of the reasonably-
sized archives in this fandom.
> No, they're not horrible, but in those examples you are talking
about
> relationships between adults. If it's a Snape/Harry or even Mme.
> Hooch/Ron, we are looking at relationships between adults and
minors,
> which in most of the U.S. is illegal, even if it is completely
> consensual. It certainly is not illegal to write fanfics about it,
> but again, it may be the preference of some writers to choose not
to,
> and also to choose not to associate their work with those who do.
Luckily, JKR doesn't feel the same way. People are certainly
entitled to archive their fics anywhere they like, but they should
justify their own personal decision by claiming that JKR wishes that
people not write fanfic that contains gay characters, or that JKR
wishes that people not write about intergenerational romances, or
imply that JKR believes that intergenerational romances are
inherently Bad Bad Bad.
Furthermore, while the age of consent for gay relationships was 18
in the UK until the late 90s (ie after the series is expected to be
over) the age of consent in many states in the US and all throughout
the UK to consent to heterosexual sex is a bit younger than that.
Yes, of course, it is *wrong* for a teacher to seduce a student, but
there's a number of fics on FA that deal with the "wrongness" issue,
and others that try to explain it (from today's list,
http://www.astronomytower.org/authors/chrmisha/OTWT01.html is one
such example) and there's a pretty large number that find 22 year
old Hermione falling in love with 38 year old Remus Lupin or Severus
Snape - so, in those cases, the student is a former student, and is
now an adult.
Then again, I had a conversation once with someone who said that she
didn't think a certain site would ever archive a Bill Weasley/Remus
Lupin fic set during book 5 - not because it was slash, but because
it was intergenerational. As this was before JKR's infamous Maths
Issue this spring, I was under the impression, as were hundreds of
others, that they were perhaps six years apart, and Bill had been a
first year in Lupin's last. Who's right in this calculation>
> Nobody's suggesting that anything anybody wants to post to FA
should
> be suppressed. FictionAlley seems to be a perfect example of
freedom
> of expression and it should be encouraged. But please don't make
the
> mistake of thinking that if somebody doesn't care for what you're
> offering and wants to "do business" elsewhere, that is in any way
> censorship or suppression of your forum.
I wasn't trying to make the claim that it was such censorship or
suppression, and I am sorry that it came off that way.
However, I continue to be astonished that people who are fans of a
book about tolerance - where it's commonplace to see interracial
romances that would have been deemed shocking thirty - or even
twenty - years ago, can demonstrate intolerance to the degree that
they are shocked SHOCKED! that there may be gay witches and wizards.
That in a world where the life expectancy seems to be over 100
years, there wouldn't be intergenerational romances. That people
should be allowed to write about bad things, and things they don't
agree with - JKR does, so why shouldn't her fans?
As JKR said in 2000 (http://www.the-leaky-
cauldron.org/quickquotes/articles/2000/1000-cbc-
rogers.htm), "Sometimes I get asked 'What would be your recipe for a
happier life?' And I've always said 'A bit more tolerance from all
of us.'" already...
But I just feel like people making up comments by JKR to justify their own personal preferences can be a little overmuch.
Now, I'm off to help Paul get FA back up. Sigh!
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
(no subject)
Date: 2004-07-02 10:35 am (UTC)(no subject)
Date: 2004-07-02 03:13 pm (UTC)