The Columbia, Nationality and Religion

[heidi]

I don't know why this bugged me, but it did.

This picture was on the front page of The Miami Herald yesterday morning. A cross, marking the place where they found remains of one of the Columbia crew, and flowers placed at its base.

Why a cross, when there's a 2 in 7 likelihood that the person whose remains were there was not a Christian? Ramon was Jewish, and as I understand it (Madhuri can correct me, I'm sure) Chawla was Hindu.

While I certainly respect the dedication of the searchers, who spent their time searching for something to be able to bring to the families of those killed, I can't help but find their mode of marking, well, problematic. I won't say offensive, because I am sure it wasn't done with any negative feelings, but possibly simply out of ignorance.

I've gone to churches before - I've gone to Catholic and Protestant-denomination funerals - but the marker where a Jewish man lays - or has laid - should not be designated with a cross.

It contrasted sharply in my mind this morning with the fact that NASA has made a concerted effort not to drape any of the coffins bearing remains with the US flag alone, as Ramon was an Israeli citizen. They, at this point, don't know whose remains are in those coffins, and the consideration shown is remarkable.

I just hope that even though the original intentions may have been good, if it's learned that Ramon's or Chawla's remains were at that location marked with the cross, that the cross is removed and replaced with something more appropriate.

Comments

[tropes.livejournal.com]

That is horribly upsetting to me. It also upset me during the president's address when he was quoting from the Bible and talking openly about God. I was like, geez man, these people didn't all believe in the same God as you, and the American people certainly don't all agree on the subject of religion. It just upsets me and makes me feel marginalized, like the government is judging on religion.

I just realized I'm ranting on your LJ. I'm sorry. I just had to say something because it really upsets me and makes me, an atheist, feel very alone.

[ias.livejournal.com]

It's always surprised me that the USA, a country that were founded due to the quest for religious freedom, is so steeped in religion. It seems it doesn't matter what religion you are, as long as you believe in some supernatural force. Personally, I would find it very difficult to live in a country which has 'god' emblazoned over it's currency and its seal. I know this might seem more than a bit ironic from an atheist who happily lives in a country where the head of state is also head of the established church, but there you go.

[peacockharpy.livejournal.com]

It's always surprised me that the USA, a country that were founded due to the quest for religious freedom, is so steeped in religion.

*laugh* Well, the Puritans came to the US in search of religions freedom -- but only for themselves. They were just as high-and-mighty about telling people what church to go to -- you had to pay fines if you did not attend their meetings.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

From today's Ann Landers, a letter sent in from a reader:

Many people have stopped me on the street or come to my door with religious tracts, so I had cards printed with the following:

"I never told my own religion nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed. I am satisfied that yours must be an excellent religion to have produced a life of such exemplary virtue and correctness. For it is in our lives, not from our words, that our religion must be judged." (Thomas Jefferson to Mrs. H. Harrison Smith, 1816)

[tropes.livejournal.com]

Wordy McWord.

[powersh20works.livejournal.com]

It's a shame that while this country was established as one of religious freedom, that notion was immediately dwarfed by religious nuts. 'Work ethic' is not all that the Puritans gave to us. It's too bad that more people don't listen to Jefferson. I discuss my religious beliefs only with people who ask me about them directly, in my own personal writing, or in a church community. Or, as in recent cases (http://www.livejournal.com/talkread.bml?journal=powersh20works&itemid=27125#cutid1), when people insult me because of my personal beliefs. When will people realize that when it comes to spirituality, one man's weed is another man's flower? It's personal.

[kindofwhimsical.livejournal.com]

Actually, though the Puritans were seeking freedom from the Church of England, they were only a small first wave of the settlers that originally came here. What this country was really founded on is money - untapped reasources that could be translated into profit here and back in England.

So, you know. Take that and do with it what you may. ::shrug::

[praetorianguard.livejournal.com]

Agreed, but I'm very pleased that Bush didn't block the Israeli military's search for Ramon's remains. I thought he would, scientific investigation and all. I can't decide if it's because he doesn't understand the scientific investigation rationale or if someone told him of the Israeli policy regarding the 'fallen in the field.'

[peacockharpy.livejournal.com]

It irritates me too.

I'm sure that the person(s) who put up the cross meant well -- and I know that it is a tradition in Florida, at least, to mark the scenes of highway accidents with flower-bedecked crosses. The searchers were probably doing the same kind of thing, and didn't even think about the possibility that the remains might not belong to a Christian. They made an assumption based on a limited worldview, and that's not overtly disrespectful, but it shows a certain narrowmindedness.

(Of course, how hard can it be to do the mental problem-solving -- two of these astronauts were NOT CHRISTIAN -- especially as it's been all over the news about Ramon being the first Israeli astronaut in space. *sigh*)

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Actually, in Miami, the marking is usually a circle, containing the name of the deceased and the day on which he or she was killed, located on the nearest pole, or on a stake into the ground.

[peacockharpy.livejournal.com]

Around here friends or relatives set up a cross (they aren't large), and then later the DOT takes the cross down and puts up a round white "Drive Safely" sign in its place.

I've heard the tradition of putting a cross up is Hispanic (specifically Mexican) but I don't have any real verification on that... but in most cases, since it's the family/friends putting it up, one can assume that they knew the religion of the driver.

[ias.livejournal.com]

Nor should one assume, unless they publically prclaimed their faith before their deaths, that the other members of the crew were Christian.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

True, but I actually had read in one of the profile-articles that the other five were members of various churches.

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

At least one of them was, some of the members of his church were on All Things Considered the other day.

It is bothersome, and I understand completely, but I also think it should be taken as the gesture of respect and compassion that it was meant to be.

[darkrosetiger.livejournal.com]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who was bothered by that. The fact that the person who did it meant well makes it more frustrating, in a way.

[sternel.livejournal.com]

I agree, the marker should accurately reflect the beliefs and heritage of the person who so briefly rested there. But until that's determined, someone at least in that moment realized that *something* should be there. Perhaps it was a bit thoughtless. But perhaps, too, the person just didn't know what else to do. While I have left the church I was raised in, I catch myself very often falling back on the rituals without realizing it. I wouldn't be surprised if that's what happened here, and I have no doubt that something befitting that astronaut will be put up as soon as they determine who it was.

we're all learning. and it's the things like this that teach us.

[amaterasu.livejournal.com]

I'm relieved to see that someone else agrees with me. I even more annoyed with the President for reading a passage from Isaiah. At least it wasn't New Testament, but still. I can kinda understand the person-on-the-street who thought they were being reverent, but I think the PotUS ought to know better.

Jewish law being what it is, I sort of hope the remains were Ramon's. His family was very concerned about his burial within 24 hours.

(For what it's worth, I believe Chawla was a practising Hindu. Then again, one shouldn't trust everything they read in The Philadelphia Inquirer...)

[skalja.livejournal.com]

What is the Jewish law about burials?

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

There are many laws. Jewish law demands simplicity in burial -- the least expensive caskets, no embalming, and the use of burial shrouds.

Jewish burials take place as quickly as possible, following a principle of honoring the dead (k’vod hamet). Only if immediate relatives cannot arrive in time from abroad, or there is not enough time for burial before Shabbat or a holiday, are burials postponed for a day. Anything less is considered a "humiliation of the dead." Cremation is also officially forebidden, but it is sometimes done. Just before the funeral begins, the family members tear their clothing, or put on pins attached to torn black ribbons.

After the burial, it is customary for the family to sit Shiva (in mourning). This was traditionally done for seven days, although many Reform and other Jews now sit Shiva for three days, and some for one day. Traditional Jews cover all mirrors during this time and sit on Shiva benches, however less observant Jews do not. It is customary for friends and family of the deceased as well as friends of the deceased's relatives to pay a Shiva call to the designated location where people are sitting Shiva, usually at the home of a close family member. Jews do not send flowers, but when paying a Shiva call it is appropriate to bring food, because the person mourning is not supposed to worry about such mundane matters. However, placing flowers at a gravesite is not considered inaprorpriate.

[skalja.livejournal.com]

Ah, I see now why it would be best if Ramon's remains were found quickly (well, besides that being best in general). Thanks for the info.

[ivyblossom.livejournal.com]

w0rd.

[nut-shell.livejournal.com]

I'm curious, what would you have put up in the interim until you knew who was there?

I'm assuming searchers erected this cross (not any official government body.) It looks as if it may have even been constructed in haste from materials available on the spot. Perhaps whoever put it there, not being Jewish or Hindu, was not familiar with what religious symbols would be appropriate and thus used something from his own frame of reference. Perhaps, not being Jewish or Hindu, he would not have been comfortable placing symbols of those religions because he was not familiar with the meanings behind them. I would like to think the person who erected this symbol was not imposing his religious beliefs, but expressing sincere sympathy and grief in his own way.

I agree that when the remains are identified a more appropriate marker should be placed there.

NASA, as a government body, is much more aware of how to be considerate to people of all nations and religions. I would expect that level of consideration from them.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

I'm curious, what would you have put up in the interim until you knew who was there?
A post. A simple, single-column post - again, with the flowers along the bottom.

Re:

[nut-shell.livejournal.com]

You're right. That would work nicely.

Also, I was thinking...We're talking about extreme rural East Texas and Louisiana. I imagine a lot of the people who are volunteering to help have a very narrow frame of reference.

[ghettocheese.livejournal.com]

Dear damn skippy, I live maybe an hour or two away from parts where the space shuttle landed. Now I'm sorry people from this area are complete idiots who believe in God and have found themselves in the middle of a major tragedy. I think we should be proud of the people who are helping those in charge and not bitch that they put a cross by where remains were found. If anything, this cross should be taken as a symbol of respect and not as a symbol of ignorance. At least they are honoring the astronauts in what was perhaps the best way they could think of. No offense was meant. I don't see the cause for uproar or to even get the slightest bit upset about it. I've always thought the cross was this universal symbol for peace and remembrance, but maybe that's just my viewpoint as a guy with a very narrow frame of reference. Excuse me while I go cut my mullet.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

No offense was meant. I don't see the cause for uproar or to even get the slightest bit upset about it. I've always thought the cross was this universal symbol for peace and remembrance, but maybe that's just my viewpoint as a guy with a very narrow frame of reference.
Rex, you're a teenager. You have an inherently narrower frame of experience, if not reference, than a grownup. Period.

A cross is not the universal symbol for peace & remembrance - it is the Christian symbol for peace and remembrance, and a few other things besides.

But I'm sure, as you say, a lot of people presume otherwise, because they don't have much experience with other religions. There was a case a few years ago involving a city seal that a resident designed, incorporating some of the flag, George Washington, their city's founder, and the little Fish symbol that a lot of people put on cars and stuff.

The designer said that she thought the fishie was a universal symbol of peace; it's not. It's a Christian symbol that is shorthand for Jesus Christ. She *did not know* and she included it, not of malice, but in ignorance.

I *know* they put the cross there as a symbol of respect, but as it seems clear that Ramon's remains *were* there, I think that if it's still there now, it should be replaced with something more fitting.