A Possible Answer to a Question I've Seen People Asking about SPN 3.01 + Bears and Legal Issues

[heidi]

Well, maybe not an answer so much as my take on a plotline, but it's

I've seen some discussion of why Isaac and Tamara blamed Sam and Dean for the demons' escape through the Devil's Gate and I've been pondering on it today...

Kripke gave an interview about S3 where he talked about the moral issues that come up in the show.

"For us the best episodes of Supernatural are the ones about shades of gray and the ones where the decisions the boys have to make are morally troubling to them and about the people they meet who have gone way beyond them in the crossing of moral lines."

Kripke says this concept of blurred lines of moral issues played a part in the decision to introduce two new regular recurring characters into Supernatural in season three.

Sam and Dean should always be running into hunters and other people whose moral line is much more blurred than their own, Kripke says of the creation of Ruby. "She is one of those hunters whose moral line is a lot more blurred than that of the boys."

So last night, we saw Ruby kill three innocent humans who just happened to be posessed by demons, and we saw Isaac and Tamara blame the boys for letting the demons out in Wyoming.

I think there's a relationship between both of these situations, and they tie into Kripke's statement about other hunters who have crossed moral lines.

Dean, as we recall from S1, was upset about killing an innocent person who was possessed by the YED's "son", and both he and Sam were discombobulated about killing Meg. And of course, Sam wouldn't kill John just to get to the YED, even when John was telling him to, and we can also talk about Sam not killing Jake when he first had the chance, because even though he had the opportunity, he considered that it wasn't the "right" thing to do - and of course he got killed for it. And then there's Madison, which is, er, an episode all to itself.

So I'm not sure the boys' lines are the same as they've been since, say, Episode One, but clearly, the boys - and Bobby - would rather exorcise than kill, whereas Tamara, we're led to believe, kills the guy possessed by Envy because she is still so angry and yes, wrathful about what he did to Isaac. It's no coincidence that the two humans who survived the possessions were the ones who were dealt with by Dean and Bobby.

So it's possible that Isaac and Tamara have heard some truthful information out of Wyoming - demons do lie when it suits their purpose, and it wouldn't surprise me if they have a way to infiltrate the hunters' network to try to knock people off guard, keep them from working together, set hunters against each other, etc. So let's just presume that somehow, hunters know that Sam had the opportunity to kill Jake who went on to open the Gate, but chose not to, and that the boys - and Bobby - chose to save Ellen's life rather than kill Jake just before he opened the Gate - and that is why they blame both boys (although possibly allotting slightly more blame to Sam?) because a hunter with a moral line in a different place would have allowed Ellen to die, or would have killed Jake well before he ever made it to the Gate. I mean, technically, the boys let Jake walk right by them in the cemetery and they could have shot him in the head then and there. And they didn't, because their moral compasses instructed them to try and stop Jake without killing him.

In contrast, for Ruby, killing isn't a last resort - she could have brought a supersoaker of holy water into the house and slowed the Sins down that way, then exorcised them, if she really just wanted to Help Sam and Send The Bastards Back To Hell - she didn't need to kill the human hosts. It's her Option of Choice, at least from what we've seen at this point, and that's a sharp contrast to what we saw Dean and Bobby do last night.

So yeah, there are hunters who are blaming Sam and Dean, not because they personally think the boys opened the gate, but because they don't have as much of a problem with killing a human to stop a demon.

Maybe?

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In other news, my friend laughingirl is doing another auction of bears and boxing gloves signed by celebs to raise money for the Avon Breast Cancer Foundation, and among this year's items are boxing gloves signed by the cast of Numb3rs, Amy Acker (who SPN fans might remember from Dead in the Water), Ian McKellan, Neil Patrick Harris, Nicholas Brendan, Anthony Head, Oliver Phelps, Paul McGann, Hayden Panettiere, Devon Murray, Alan Tudyk and various Buffy/Angel alums. Definitely worth a look and a bid!

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And rivkat has asked on fandom_lawyers for anyone anyone injured or affected by overreaching copyright warnings to get in touch with the Intellectual Property Law Clinic at American University (which is my law school alma mater). Click the link to the comm to learn more.

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Ooooh, and shinyshiny featured the perfume I use today! It's so yummy, if you like sweet candy-ish scents, which anyone who remembers my obsession with Lush's Snow Fairy last winter will recall will know I do.

Comments

[affectingly.livejournal.com]

Oh definitely, I think that's more than likely what the problem is. We've seen hunters with all sorts of moral compasses in the show. And I also think it's interesting that it's Sam that keeps Dean from crossing that line. Because if Dean were on his own (or even maybe when he was on his own) he would cross more lines than he currently does. I mean, maybe that's why he had bloody tears in Bloody Mary... He feels guilt for the lines he's crossed as a hunter when he didn't have Sam holding him back. Pure speculation, but *shrugs* it does fit with what we've seen of Dean in episodes like Bloodlust.

Dean's moral compass only involves what's best for his family, and primarily Sam. If he can save innocents and keep Sam safe in the process, bonus! Otherwise, it's Sam who comes first.

I think Dean feels less guilty about what happened at the Devil's Gate than Sam does because all he cares about is that he killed YED and saved Sam. Sam's the one carrying around the weight of what happened that night more than anyone because Sam is *THE* moral compass of the whole show, IMHO.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

If he can save innocents and keep Sam safe in the process, bonus! Otherwise, it's Sam who comes first.
And that's what I adore about Dean, though. That saving innocents is For The Win and Two Thumbs Up for him - he could have killed Lust so easily but he chose not to, because to him, the demon - the supernatural thing, the Evil That Does Evil - needs to be killed, but the Innocent Person doesn't.

So, yay dean!

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

Um, what's the question exactly that you are answering? I haven't seen it on my own flist, it doesn't seem...

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Ah, sorry! Basically, why were Isaac and Tamara blaming Dean and Sam for the demons' escapes.

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

Oh! Got it. You make interesting points; hadn't thought of it that way. It didn't seem confusing to me at all, though. I just figured, the demon escape was huge, and the consequences are enormous, and when stuff like that happens, people like to have someone to blame. Even if specific details of the event aren't out, the fact that Sam and Dean (and Bobby - Isaac and Tamara were including Bobby in the blame - and thus probably also Ellen) were there and didn't stop it from happening, thus then other hunters would easily consider it their fault. By default. Sort of.

Not to mention, Sam's connection to the Yellow-Eyed Demon seemed to have been making its rounds in the hunter world last season, so then they all hear that Sam et al were there when the demons escaped, it probably doesn't look good.

So basically, I just assumed all of the above and that was good enough for me. On the other hand, there could be a 'message' or larger philosophy going on as you posit. Will be interesting to see if it comes up in the future.

[momebie.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the link about the copyrights. I haven't ever been injured by one, but since I work for one of the companies mentioned and in my former life here was the person who checked and edited every single one of those before they went to the printer, it was rather surreal to read it in Publisher's Weekly accompanied by those accusations. I've been following the proceedings out of curiousity and will definitely pimp that. :)

[pennswoods.livejournal.com]

I'm very curious to see where the copyright case goes. I know I've stumbled across second-and third-hand stories of ridiculous restrictions. It's great to hear there's a group testing this.

[storydivagirl.livejournal.com]

I think you're onto something with your thoughts on why Sam and Dean are blamed for things. The only other reason I could come up with is that they know about John's deal that involved the colt, but still...it should be interesting to see how all this plays out.

[siriusslash.livejournal.com]

What I find interesting is that all of these people are hunters of evil beings and one would assume that it was for the purpose of good and humankind. I mean so far every hunter has a tragic begining and it usually involves the innocent killing of a loved one. So one would think that the reason that each of these people have devoted their lives to killing all things evil is so that it doesn't happen to anyone else. So it just makes me wonder why there is such a grey area there when it comes to killing the innocent host of a demon. These hunters are experienced enough to know that these hosts don't exactly go out and look to be possesed. So why not take the time to at least try and save the host. To me it seems this is why they do what they do in the first place. I know it sounds really corny and cliched but they are out killing the evil yeah for their own reasons but the end result is that their out there protecting innocent people whether they set out to do that or not.

And as far as other hunters blaming Sam and Dean for releasing all those demons from hell, It's a plotline that I feel could have been left out. If you look at AHBL part 1&2 what was the YED doing? He was gathering people who, since they had certain mind realted abilities, he would be able to manipulate them into eliminating each other until the strongest was left standing. That happened to be Jake. Had Sam and Dean stopped him from opening the gate what would have happened next? The demon would have gone back to the drawing board and started gathering more people to try to achive the same end. The bottom line is he wasn't going to stop until he accomplished opening that gate and being able to cross over those tracks to gain access to the gate. So no matter who was there the hunters at some point and time were going to have extra work to do. And like I said this is why they do what they do. They're always going to be out there fighting evil and sometimes there are going to be bigger numbers of evil than others.

[kris4n6.livejournal.com]

Oooh, I love Pink Sugar! I've got some moisturizing gel and body powder from that line - if you have a Marshall's or TJ Maxx near you, take a look there for this line. Those items (and I think a body wash or something) were discontinued and sold off to places like Marshall's - I got some of the body powder for $5. And you're right, it's very similar to Snow Fairy.

As for SPN, I like your theories. I'll admit, the #1 thing that irritated me about last night's ep (and pretty much the only thing, really) was not only Isaac and Tamara blaming Sam & Dean for opening the gate, but Sam blaming himself as well. I did have a bit of issue with all the hunters knowing what had happened, especially when it was only about a week since the gate had been opened. Word seemed to have spread *awfully* fast - and who spread it? Bobby? Ellen? I doubt Sam & Dean were calling up random hunter buds to say "Guess how we fucked up?" I suppose Bobby & Ellen might have spread word to give hunters a heads up, but it still seems odd to me that other hunters are blaming S&D for opening the gates - how did that information get relayed to them? I mean, did Ellen call people up and give a play-by-play? I just don't see it, with her or Bobby. I can see them calling and saying "Gate from Hell got opened, we closed it, but about 200-300 demons escaped. YED is toast, though. Keep an eye out for escapees." But more than that seems odd to me.

I may be over thinking all of this, really.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Not to mention, Sam's connection to the Yellow-Eyed Demon seemed to have been making its rounds in the hunter world last season, so then they all hear that Sam et al were there when the demons escaped, it probably doesn't look good.

Exactly, and when you're dealing with people already prone to looking for patters and feeling paranoid?

Badscary combination of Negativity towards the boys.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Heh, that's probably how I felt when a litigation involving the NY Times and electronic reprints ended up before the Supreme Court. I'm interested in seeing where this case goes...

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

That's what I love about law school clinics - they're a terrific place for this because law students tend to be able to see things from a different perspective than, say, those who've been doing the same sort of grind for 10 or 20 years. I know there are people out there who will say that such a test is risky, but look at the woman who took on the RIAA - she took a major risk, and no she didn't win but it's making people seriously look at the issue and the ramifications.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, yeah - I'm sure that had an impact on it, too, depending on how many people know about that, and the true reach of the Official Demonic Newsletter, where you just know the demons are zine-ing RPF about the Winchesters every week.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

I know it sounds really corny and cliched but they are out killing the evil yeah for their own reasons but the end result is that their out there protecting innocent people whether they set out to do that or not.

It feels a little intellectually lazy of them to kill the host without making any effort to do otherwise. But... didn't we see a little of this sort of moral quandry in the HP books where the wizarding world had to differentiate between those who supported Voldemort out of their own free will, and those who were under Imperio? And the Minister of Magic after Scrimgeour was under Imperio, wasn't he, and still got killed at the Battle and nobody seems to have cared that he was basically a walking zombie and got killed for *that*, not even Percy when he did his adorable Resignation One-Liner.

So, huh.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Ooooh, such a good idea re Marshalls!
I suppose Bobby & Ellen might have spread word to give hunters a heads up, but it still seems odd to me that other hunters are blaming S&D for opening the gates - how did that information get relayed to them?

Can we blame Jo? No reason why Ellen wouldn't tell her the whole story and then maybe she, still a little bitter from the events in BUABS, went and told other hunters, and she knows a lot because of the Roadhouse.

Hmmm. I may need to fic this....

[kris4n6.livejournal.com]

Oh, interesting idea! I have a friend that theorizes that Jo was the one to tell Gordon about Sam being 'special'. I'd love to see her show up again later, maybe a bit evil, working with Gordon.

[yourlibrarian]

I think that's a great explanation of where the blame comes from. I also thought in AHBH2 they took an inordinate amount of time stopping Jake. Not to mention all of them standing there watching the seal spin instead of yanking the gun out earlier to perhaps keep the gate from opening.

[heybritney.livejournal.com]

So yeah, there are hunters who are blaming Sam and Dean, not because they personally think the boys opened the gate, but because they don't have as much of a problem with killing a human to stop a demon.

I don't quite get what you're trying to say..?
But I agree with you, the show is definitely pushing this issue. Did you see in the shot when Dean was drowning lust in the holy water, he actually let her come up to breathe so he could keep the girl alive. I thought that was a great little detail.

I wonder if Kripke will play with what might convince Sam to get off the well beated moral path, just based on his desperation to save Dean. I think that could be interesting...