(no subject)

[heidi]

I'm having issues with my DailyKos account and can't post what I had hoped to have as my first diary there today, so I am posting it here instead. Please feel free to tear down my sourcing, because I really hope that the right-wing-wind-tunnel isn't so vile as to spread a rumor without a shred of basis, and give it so much traction that Tim Russert ended up posing it as a question to Mayor Nagin.

There's been a lot of discussion on winger-blogs and "news" sites like NewsMax about how Amtrak purportedly offered trains to Mayor Nagin before the hurricane, or possibly after, and OMG he refused them and didn't take advantage of that wonderful opportunity to get people out of town. Nagin was asked about this on Tim Russert last Sunday and he said that he was never made aware of such an offer. I assumed for a few days that, well, possibly FEMA didn't transmit the offer, or if it was made ahead of time, again, perhaps some underling didn't pass it on, and it's even possible, I guess, that Nagin was lying on Russert's show.

But when an anonymouse came at me regarding a reply I made on someone else's LJ today and posted, "amtrak
offered to run special trains to get people out of New Orleans and was turned down", I wanted to see if it was possible to get to the bottom of it, and find out whether Amtrak had made such an offer, and if so, when.

So here's what I found:
The Associated Press reported the night before Katrina hit that "Sasha Gayer tried to catch one of the packed Amtrak trains out but couldn’t. So she walked back to the French Quarter, buying a few supplies on the way and then stopping at one of the few bars open on Bourbon Street." This implies to me that the Amtrak trains in New Orleans on Saturday and possibly on Sunday were full of people evacuating the city for points north, west and possibly east, and that there was no additional capacity on the trains to be offered, whether gratis or for a cost, to the residents of New Orleans.

As the article predates the hurricane and any arguments of responsibility to any individuals or agencies, I think we can all be convinced of its truth that the Amtrak trains were "packed".

Now, the second article is harder to find corroboration for, but I'll throw it out here anyway.

2theadvocate, the website of channel two of Baton Rouge, quoted Mayor Nagin on September 1 as saying that the train tracks resembled "pixie sticks" after the hurricane and flood. This implies to me that the trains would not have been useful or viable as a means of evacuating those left in the city, and for that matter, anyone trying to evacuate that way would have had to travel to the train station, but luckily, as I understand it, there is a train station within a quarter mile of the Superdome, which does imply that at least a portion of the train tracks at the station near the Superdome were both nearby, and underwater.

Oh, and that article in the 2theadvocate? It's got a nifty little contemporaneous summary of Nagin's post-flood evacuation plan:

n Some 2,000 critically ill in hospitals and at the New Orleans Arena and the Convention Center will be bused or taken by helicopter to local airports and flown to hospitals throughout the state.

n The Superdome, which the mayor described as "an absolute mess," with refugees living in unsanitary conditions and with gang members "doing their thing," will be evacuated using 300 coach buses.

The mayor also has requested a combined 500 school buses from Baton Rouge and Lafayette. He is expecting 200 of those to arrive by this morning and the remainder by the afternoon.

He hopes to bus 14,000 to 15,000 evacuees daily to arenas in Baton Rouge, Lafayette, Alexandria, Shreveport and Houston. Nagin said he hopes to have the Superdome empty today.

n Evacuate those in hotels and residents walking along interstate overpasses.

"My prediction is we may likely be overwhelmed," he said, adding that an additional 150 buses will be needed.

Nagin said a lieutenant general had offered military transport planes that could fly 300 to 400 evacuees per trip from the Naval Air Station in Belle Chasse. Four Navy ships also are on their way from Virginia with supplies and upward of 1,000 hospital beds.

Nagin estimated that 50,000 to 100,000 people still need to be moved out.

So those of you who say the mayor refused offers of school busses? I guess it's *possible* that he was *lying*, but let's use Occam's Razor on that little query, and see what we get.

So what do you think now? Do you think that Amtrak made an offer of trains galore, to evacuate the throes in the superdome and at the convention center, and said offer was refused for some trite and silly reason, or because the mayor was just such a huge fuckup?

Or do you think the offer may not have ever been actually made at all?

If anyone knows of any place where Amtrak officials are quoted as making that offer, and where said articles/posts are dated before, say, September 8 or 9, please let me know, because it's possible my conjecture is entirely wrong.

It is *possible*...

Comments

Via instapundit.com

[(Anonymous)]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/10/AR2005091001529_4.html

The relevant passage is the following:
>>> "In fact, while the last regularly scheduled train out of town had left a few hours earlier, Amtrak had decided to run a "dead-head" train that evening to move equipment out of the city. It was headed for high ground in Macomb, Miss., and it had room for several hundred passengers. "We offered the city the opportunity to take evacuees out of harm's way," said Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black. "The city declined."

So the ghost train left New Orleans at 8:30 p.m., with no passengers on board. <<<<

[stephandra.livejournal.com]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/09/10/AR2005091001529_4.html

They weren't offering trains and trains, but any space available, according to the article,s they offered and the city declined. My personal thoughts on the mayor are that he wasn't necessarily well prepared, but he suffered greatly from the governor's indecision, and suffers still. There was a quote going around campus of a hot mike getting Blanco saying she should have called for NG people earlier and didn't because she was afraid of the wrong image This is the lady who wants to let people start pouring back into the city, meanwhile criticising the slow process of finding bodies in a house to house search...and those are her own NGmen and police she is criticising.

[stephandra.livejournal.com]

I guess the above person posted from the area too, as that article seems to have been making the rounds ;-)

Re: Via instapundit.com

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

I said show me something dated before the damage control began in earnest.

[batmanmsd.livejournal.com]

it's possible my conjecture is entirely wrong

It's certainly food for thought.

However it seems to me that there has been a "piling on" mentality in the criticism of Bush, while the mayor and the governor are, more often than not, given a pass in the press.

I was stunned to find out that Nagin left the area last Wednesday and didn't return until Monday when Bush was making his 3rd visit to the Gulf Coast. According to the Dallas Morning News, Nagin brought his family to Dallas and has now purchased a home there. I see nothing but hypocrisy in a press that railed on Bush for not coming off of vacation faster, yet they don't question Nagin about his own time in Texas when he should be at his post in New Orleans.

But then, nobody pressed him about sending 60% of the police force away, many to Las Vegas (on the tax payer's nickel) to unwind while people were still trapped in the city.

The whole thing is heartbreaking. EVERYONE screwed this one up.

[malsperanza.livejournal.com]

Well done, Heidi. I will quote your post elsewhere, if I may.

Bush supporters have never been known for their high ethical standards (well, consider the source, after all), and they love nothing better than a really sleazy whispering campaign.

[darkjediprncess.livejournal.com]

While not really answering the questions you have specifically posed, mainly due to the fact that I am still researching, here is a link to the City of New Orleans Disater management plan. for hurricanes .
http://www.cityofno.com/portal.aspx?portal=46&tabid=26

Below is an excerpt from that plan. I think it's pretty clear that Mayor Nagin didn't not follow the plan.


The City of New Orleans will utilize all available resources to quickly and safely evacuate threatened areas. Those evacuated will be directed to temporary sheltering and feeding facilities as needed. When specific routes of progress are required, evacuees will be directed to those routes. Special arrangements will be made to evacuate persons unable to transport themselves or who require specific life saving assistance. Additional personnel will be recruited to assist in evacuation procedures as needed.

[cadetsandkings.livejournal.com]

Wait... did you mean to say "did not" or am I just missing something?

I haven't seen any evidence that he DID- just a lot of hearsay and half-evidence from both sides that either aid wasn't offered to him (to which I say, "...") or conversely that it was offered and denied. To which I say, "WTF."

If I missed your point or am way off, please correct me, by all means. I don't want to be the loose cannon!

[cadetsandkings.livejournal.com]

Yeah, but this could apply to both political parties. Pointing out something many people acknowledge to varying degrees- not to mention trying to put culpability on Bush supporters- doesn't really answer the question.

It seems to me that many people regardless of party are guilty of a gross neglect of their duties. This includes the entirety of Bush's administration, the people who endorsed the development of the DHS, the people who decided it was a good idea to rely almost exclusively on FEMA when it's been so severely docked, and anyone in Louisiana who wasn't advocating for a home-grown emergency plan that fit the needs of that state's citizens. I would say that any of these people in the public sector are obviously 1. in it for the wrong reasons (personal gain) and 2. do NOT have the best interests of their adoring public- which includes several hundred thousand poor people with no initiative-taking tendencies to save their own skins- at heart.

And no, I am not bashing on the poor... however, many people who rely on the public dole and continue to remain in one of the most stagnant, environmentally unsound, organized-crime-ridden, meteorologically endangered cities in the nation and who had little to say about it until now clearly lack the initiative or the forethought to plan for emergencies. Thus they need encouragement, not to be ignored and federalized to death.

[cadetsandkings.livejournal.com]

I would even shorten that statement to say, "I see nothing but hypocrisy in the press."

But then again pith isn't always the best mate of accuracy or depth.

[batmanmsd.livejournal.com]

they love nothing better than a really sleazy whispering campaign

Like how Bush was going to bring back the draft? ;)

[elseinane.livejournal.com]

According to the Dallas Morning News, Nagin brought his family to Dallas and has now purchased a home there

FYI - the home is for his wife and school aged children, since his New Orleans home on Bayou St John still has 3 feet of water in it.. He is still in New Orleans. And I know this because I live here.

But then, nobody pressed him about sending 60% of the police force away, many to Las Vegas (on the tax payer's nickel) to unwind while people were still trapped in the city.

Considering that most of those who were sent to Las Vegas has been dealing with the most horrific scenes of destruction with NO help from the Red Cross/FEMA/the National Guard/or military and were on the verge of mental and physical collapse... I think that the situation is a little more complicated that you have relayed here.

~Elise in exile from home in New Orleans

Re: Via instapundit.com

[elseinane.livejournal.com]

nd it had room for several hundred passengers. "We offered the city the opportunity to take evacuees out of harm's way," said Amtrak spokesman Cliff Black. "The city declined."

The train in question had 900 seats. There were ~25,000 people who wound up at the Superdome and more at the Convention Center. Would you like to guess the scene that would have taken place where you told the crowd "I can save only 900 of you"? The stuff that you saw at the Dome/CCenter would have seemed mild.

~Elise in exile from New Orleans

[mahoni.livejournal.com]

WOW. I am...speechless. Almost.

I think you need to do a little more research into things like the state of available 'dole;' the connection between education and poverty and, following that, the state of the education system in Louisiana (and other impoverished areas); and...wow, just a whole lotta other things, before you decide to pass judgement on hundreds of thousand disadvantaged people.

I mean, just, wow.

[batmanmsd.livejournal.com]

I think that the situation is a little more complicated that you have relayed here

My point is that partisanship in the press has kept the heat off of the mayor and governor. When your city is underwater and you're the man in charge, shopping for a house (even for your wife and kids) shouldn't be your top priority. According to (I believe it was) the Times, he plans on relocating to Dallas in 6 months.

And you're right. The situation is more complicated. There's plenty of blame to go around. I'm pissed at everyone in the government about this mess, Bush included. The blame game is disgusting in and of itself, it's compounded by how one sided it is in the media. Everyone is playing politics and that's just sick.

Sorry you're living in exile, I hope everything works out for you.

[elseinane.livejournal.com]

My point is that partisanship in the press has kept the heat off of the mayor and governor.
I'd love to see that coverage - because I have YET to see any that HASN'T blamed the city/state for what happened.

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<I>My point is that partisanship in the press has kept the heat off of the mayor and governor.</I>
I'd love to see that coverage - because I have YET to see any that HASN'T blamed the city/state for what happened.

<I.When your city is underwater and you're the man in charge, shopping for a house (even for your wife and kids) shouldn't be your top priority.</I>

Right - because at city that is a ghost town and militarized - really needs a mayor. And I'd REALLY respect someone who doesn't care about their family - because that is SUCH a good kind of person who lets their child be homeless.

<i>Sorry you're living in exile, I hope everything works out for you.</I>
Works out? I can't get in my apartment because the entire parish is locked down, my office is open but with 90% of our customers are under water so that might not be around for long, the insurance adjustors won't get there for another month (minimum), FEMA has said that I don't qualify for assistance (no home but I am sleeping on parent's couch so that must be good enough for them), and all I am hearing is the rest of the country saying that my hometown should be bulldozed and that it isn't worth rebuilding and the former first lady thinking that people living like animals in shelters have it better than before.

Yeah... I'm bitter. Pay no mind to the crazy lady...

[cadetsandkings.livejournal.com]

Okay. Please reread my comment. I was not placing blame on OMGUNEDUCATEDPOORPPLZ. I said that the people who most need help getting out of their already shit- and historically shit- situation were failed by their representatives and by a pervading attitude throughout the public sector that "we will be provided for."

People who have the power to change in a city like New Orleans- the economic growth of which has for the most part been vastly retarded except for its active port and tourism trade- have a responsibility to do so. People have a responsibility to fend for themselves, too, but no amount of talk about the poor taking responsibility for themselves is going to change the fact that they need help to even have the means, the education, and the mobility to do so. Thus the people who enter the public sector ought to enter with with changes in mind, changes that will help their political domain improve itself from the bottom up.

My point was not that the poor in New Orleans are totally at fault. I believe that individuals ARE responsible for their own well being, but I believe that in a more general sense, when dealing with matters of public policy, elected officials have a responsibility to make the best use of their office for the ultimate good of the people they serve in that office. My point was that these people in the public sector failed miserably. The poor in the south have not for over a hundred years been the type of group to self-motivate, unite, and change for the better. I believe a large part of this is social and I believe they are paralyzed and I believe part of this is the attitude of their leaders who they elect allow this attitude and inability to change remain the status quo. They're being self-crippling from the top and the people who shoudl know better- the ones they're electing- are NOT serving anyone's best interests but their own.

That's the long, thread-hijacking version of what I was trying to say so please do not accuse me of poor-bashing or ignorance. Using terms like public dole isn't derogatory, it's fact. It's sad fact. I want the leadership of Louisiana to change it, and I want the federal government- which in NO WAY has the best interests of Louisiana in mind- to stop interfering and mucking it up further.

[batmanmsd.livejournal.com]

You have my deepest sympathy. Godspeed on getting your life back.

[cadetsandkings.livejournal.com]

Teehee.

DOH

[darkjediprncess.livejournal.com]

Typing slower than I think sorry, I guess a double negative makes a positive. I meant He did not follow their own Hurricane plan. The evac was a fuster cluck. They basically had a dress rehersal last year during Hurricane Ivan, which showed the total inadequacy for their evac plans. Instead of working to make it better over the last year, I think it can be safe to

[happy-potterer.livejournal.com]

Last time I checked, what you needed to buy a car and keep it insured, running, and in a safe place in the city was several thousand surplus dollars a year, not "initiative."

Clearly you have never been poor, and it's a shame. It might teach you something about what life is really like for most of the people on the planet.

[(Anonymous)]

Well, okay, but last time I checked there were a lot of issues with aid and offers of help being refused.

Additionally, I am fully aware of the cost of owning a car is prohibitive to a lot of people, myself included.

Believe it or not, though, it's possible to be a hurricane victim and also a person who lacks initiative. I did not accuse all the poor people in New Orleans of being lazy slobs not worth spending the time or money to help, which is what you and mahoni seem to think I was saying. I did say, however, that in large part due to a corrupt and self-serving set of bureaucrats a lot of people who don't have the ability or the initiative to find their own solutions got wiped.

Here's something

[selinakyle47.livejournal.com]

I haven't heard about the Amtrak offer, what I thought happened was that Amtrak shut down service on the weekend before Katrina hit. According to this press release dated 8/29, Amtrak shut down service to and from New Orleans on Saturday and Sunday (8/27 & 8/28). This LA Times article mentions that Greyhound terminated service on Saturday.

Hope that helps some.

[prettyveela.livejournal.com]

The Major was just on Larry King Live, and he said that they did call Amtrak and told that Amtrak was booked up, so it wasn't an option.

If he's lying about the offer, he's doing a damn good job of making me believe him. Maybe they sent the offer, but it never got to him?