(no subject)

[heidi]

Am catching up on LJ.

Haven't really read flist since Saturday. In-laws are still in town, RL projects are still pressing me to finish them, and various fandom projects still need doing. Will try to catch up by the end of the week, ha, but if there's something I need to see on your LJ, please let me know.

Quick thanks to isilya for her amazing lamp chop cooking tips, which were used to great success last night, when I made 40 chops, and they turned out perfectly. I also made a wonderful strawberry crumble with matzoh meal, and I'll try to share the recipe here later, too.

I grew up following Sephardic cuisine rules over Passover, and last night, one of the things on our menu was green beans with garlic. My inlaws were *shocked, shocked, shocked* - that's not something allowed under northern European tradition - and were very amused when I told the story about my first Passover while in college, when I wanted to go out for Chinese food, including chicken fried rice. Rice is not barred under Sephardic tradition, so I'd never known that it was verbotten among most Jews, and my college classmates were *shocked, shocked, shocked* that I would suggest such a thing. I also had always enjoyed popcorn during Passover; again, I didn't know it was considered wrong.

With Aaron, I try to keep to the Ashkenazi traditions in the house, but if I need popcorn this week, I'll just go pay a visit on my parents. Keeps the peace; keeps everyone happy.

Comments

[flyingcarpet.livejournal.com]

Haha, I didn't know that-- my parents are Ashkenazic (Ashkenazik?) but my mom often tries to incorporate some Sephardic traditions too-- one year she made this AMAZING charoset, with dried apricots... it was nothing like the waldorf-salad type stuff I was used to, but seriously delicious.

[aome.livejournal.com]

These are sect names I'm not familiar with - I've heard of Orthodox, Reform, Hassidic (sp?), etc, but not the above. What are the differences?

Incidentally, you might find this little Passover story amusing. :)

[tromboneborges.livejournal.com]

They aren't sects, is the difference. :D

The Ashkenazi
The Sephardi

Short answer: Sephardi are northern African/Mediterranean in origin, Ashkenazi are eastern/central European in origin.

Interesting additional note: This means that most American Jews are Ashkenazi originally, but as a result of the creation of Israel as a Jewish nation-state -- in a Sephardic location -- there has been a movement in American Jewry in the last 60 years or so (which, parenthetically, I generally disapprove of, but that's about a ten page screed to explain) to make Sephardic customs/pronunciations/culture the "standard."

Slightly less interesting explanatory note: This is why when you go to Bar Mitzvahs in the US the grandparents and the grandchild pronounce the prayers so very very very differently. :P

[aome.livejournal.com]

Hmm... different habits, services, prayers, food laws - you wouldn't call those different sects of Judaism? What would you classify as a sect, given how different the two branches are?

But thanks for the explanation. My mother's family is Jewish (German-Jews, originally, but quite a few generations back), but since we're not, I don't know as much about it.

[debellatrix.livejournal.com]

None of us are terribly religious or traditional in my family, so this may have never come up, but I can only imagine what my great uncle Pepe's household must have been like. Coming from Russia, my great aunt Rachel would have been Ashkenazi, however being Cuban, my uncle Pepe would have eaten rice everyday. Of course, marrying each other would have been the greatest break in tradition, so I imagine the food bit was rather inconsequential.

Must get lamb recipe.

Happy Passover.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Well, the prayers aren't different, just the pronounciation. And the food laws are the same but the interpritation is different - the law is that you cannot eat any leavened food, and Sephardic Jewish tradition holds that riceflour and cornmeal don't inherently rise like wheatflour, and thus they can't be leavened. The concept of sects, like sunni and shiite, or the differences between, say, Baptists and Catholics, don't really vest in Judaism, perhaps because the community worldwide is kind of small, and also, partially, because there hasn't been the same kinds of schisms between the degrees of adherence to the laws as there have in other religions.

[ladyguenivere.livejournal.com]

ok, since i'm curious, i'll ask:
What's Sephardic vs Ashkenazi?

My friend is Jewish, but when I asked her, she said she didn't know and that she dropped out of Hebrew school.

I'm very curious. Oh, and who decided what was allowed and what was not? *curious* and when was that decided? and what is it based on? (i mean, the different foods that are or are not allowed -- why those foods?)

Did you know that you were doing an educational post? :D Should I just go find a website? *grin*

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

I think the differences are more obvious somewhere like Miami, where there are so many Jews who are of Northern European descent (Ashkenazi) and also, so many of Mediterranean (Spain, Portugal, Italy, Greece and Turkey, North Africa and Israel - Sephardic) descent. There are many other "types" of Jews as well, including Ethiopean and Asian, or those from Persia & Mesopotamia (Mizrahi) who don't fit perfectly into either of those groupings.

This page explains a lot of the differences, mostly focused on Passover. Generally, Sephardic Jews descend from those who were forced to leave Spain and Portugal in 1492. Many of these settled in North Africa, other parts of Europe and the Ottoman Empire; others had remained in Persia and the Ottoman empire during the four previous centuries. Ashkenazi Jews are Northern European, and generally their communities were from the start organized like small cities inside Christian cities.

My family is quirky - I have ancestors from Russia and Germany, but also France and Scotland (a very small Jewish community that was asked to return by Cromwell after 300 years in exile in the more tolerant Netherlands - my great great great grandfather owned a brewery or distillery - it's a little unclear now, 160 years on!). So we have a weird amalgamation of family traditions.

[nekiko27.livejournal.com]

I have declared myself Sephardic for the sole reason of being able to eat rice. I think I would starve during Passover without it >_< I have also determined sushi to be kosher for passover. It is fish and rice, and fish is kosher ^_^.

[sevensickles.livejournal.com]

As long as it doesn't have a shell :) No Ebi for you.

[sevensickles.livejournal.com]

My Jewish decent is Ashkenazi, but we always had chicken and rice during Passover. But then, my family has never been strict on traditions. And shock of all shockers, I'm not holder my seder till Friday (gasps from the crowd). I did buy a box of Matzo (pats self on back) and stuck all my bread in the freezer. I'm just proud of myself for even preparing a seder this year (I haven't done it in about, oh say, eight years). My friends all look at me funny when I celebrate Jewish holidays. They say, but you don't believe in God. Well, that doesn't mean I can't celebrate the freedom of the Jews, ha!

[nekiko27.livejournal.com]

Unfortunately, but I can have Snapper ^_^

[siyahsaclikiz.livejournal.com]

I'm no one you know, but as a Sephardic Jew, I feel that I have to say neither rice nor corn is allowed according to my family. Normally I would have said "It's the country I'm living in," (I'm Turkish) but some of my Sephardic friends over here eat rice and corn during Passover. Those traditions are just according to your family, if your family sees no problem eating rice, then go ahead! Oh, and, Hag Sameah!

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Do you have lamb for passover? I actually read today that it was unheard of in ashkenazi households, but it's always been common for Passover in mine.

It's nice to meet you, btw - Happy Pesach

: friends you

[tromboneborges.livejournal.com]

I would call sects branches of religion that differ in doctrine, that is, theologically, which the Ashkenazi and Sephardi do not. They do not, for instance, differ in their prayers or services. They differ in their pronunciation of some Hebrew vowels (and a consonant or two). The differences between the two are inherently geographical-cultural, not doctrinal or theological.

The differences in food laws aren't actually doctrinal differences, for example; they are different cultural ways of enacting the same doctrine. (For instance, the reason Heidi's inlaws were freaked out about green beans and garlic is that the Ashkenazi tradition forbids legumes. Now, legumes clearly don't leaven, but the usual explanation is that once upon a time legumes and grains were shipped together as collectively packaged dry goods, and there was no way to ensure that the legumes you were eating were not made un-kosher for Passover by the presence of some unkosher grains among them. So, better safe than sorry: don't eat the legumes. This interpretation was never made among the Sephardi (perhaps they have heard of washing their legumes), but also is clearly just a cultural tradition at this point since we don't ship our grains and legumes that way anymore.)

Hope this makes some sense -- this is a topic upon which I clearly enjoy ranting. :D

[sevensickles.livejournal.com]

My mom just went to a seder where they served lamb. He's ashkenazi. And my mom would have served us lamb growing up except for the fact my dad doesn't like lamb. I agree that it has a lot to do with family traditions and a bit to do with regional traditions.

[elfundeb.livejournal.com]

Green beans with garlic -- is it the garlic that's not kosher?

I hosted a Seder last night and studded one of my two lamb roasts with garlic and rosemary. Nobody complained, though since it was an interfaith affair most of the attendees weren't Jewish.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

No, the beans. Garlic is completely fine and people use it a lot this holiday. Potatoes technicallyshould be banned, but the head Rabbis, 700 years ago in Germany, said they were an exception as they were a diet staple.

[siyahsaclikiz.livejournal.com]

Really? I had no idea. But yes, lamb has ALWAYS been a part of the Seder table, as far back as I can remember.

*friends back*

[ashesofautumn.livejournal.com]

Curious, though. Do you try and keep Ashkenazi customs in the household because that's what you married into? Does it work that the wife usually conforms to the husband's traditions? I've been confused about this for a while, since my own family's kind of disjointed when it comes to that.

My family's Sephardic originally. (Father's family is partially Iranian.) My father and his siblings all married Ashkenazim, but one of his sisters refused to conform to Ashkenazi traditions and demanded that her husband 'turn' Sephardic. She's the dominant personality in the marriage, which is quite clear, but biblical law doesn't exactly adhere to separate family dynamics.

Do you know what it's based upon? Which one the husband and wife decide they like more? When I asked my family, they were just like, "Do what you want," (although they're usually that way in regards to customs) and my Jewish friends have no clue.

And it, of course, resulted in uncomfortable situations at the table during the meal part of the seders, as they kept on asking about and avoiding dishes because of ingredients in them, as well as the fact that the family members that followed Ashkenazi custom couldn't even have some of the drinks. :)

[(Anonymous)]

Actually, (I can't resist ignoring a question when I know the answer) the way Jewish tradition works is that it follows the father's side usually. On Passover it happens to be that since my mom does the cooking, we usually follow her traditions, but that's only because both she and my father are Ashkenaz with basically the same traditions. Any more questions, just e-mail me at fefi3@juno.com
;), Fefi

[naomichana.livejournal.com]

I find the lamb chops more jarring than the green beans -- mostly because I don't exactly imagine the latter as beans, although it does occur to me that I don't eat them during Pesach.

My mom's family is Ashkenazic; my dad's family is Methodist, so if we're following any set of Passover traditions, it would be Mom's side. I do follow fairly strict Ashkenazic custom, mostly because it's fun to try and explain why quinoa and potatoes and coffee are OK but corn (maize) and pinto beans and so forth aren't and peanuts are anyone's guess.

Now, some hyper-traditionalist friends of mine would claim that if I got married I should follow my husband's customs. Said friends obviously do not realize that my mother's side of the family is a fully functioning matriarchy, which sprouts girls easily three out of every four births and considers husbands to be useful mostly for propagation of the species. ;) If I marry a Sephardi guy, we'll work it out in the ketubah, the way Rabbanite and Karaite Jews did back in the ninth century.