Gacked from Kokopoko

[heidi]

A true BNF of Harry Potter

It got me thinking, at around two o'clock in the morning... the real BNFs of Harry Potter are people like Stephen King, Rosie O'Donnell, Diane Duane, Laura Bush, and now, Simon leBon. Not any of us (unless any of you are, secretly, Stephen King, Rosie O'Donnell, Laura Bush or Simon leBon, which one of you may very well be).

As many of you know, I don't like the term much anyway, in part because there are so many different areas of this fandom, and someone who's a well known BNF in one section, like arabel1a, is not well known at all among the people who are, say, regular readers of marvolo's work (back when she wrote HP, that is).

But all of us know Stephen King, or Simon leBon, even if not all of us know Diane Duane. They're the big names. They're the fans. Would it be worth suggesting we reclaim the term BNF from fandom-participants and give it to the truly famous fans, the ones you'd recognize when you're walking down the street?

ETA: I think my problem with BNFness, conceptually, is that, as a few people have said over the past few days, the fandom belongs to everyone. Yes, some people (myself, admittedly, included) spend more time on fandomy things than others do, and some people who've tried to leave the fandom just have too strong a reputation for that to ever really happen. But it's clear to me, after having watched and participated in the HP fandom for about three and a half years now, that there is no bar to someone with talent at writing, reviewing, reccing, drawing, theorizing, organizing or helping from becoming just as involved as s/he wants to be. And to say that there are 100 people who "run" or "control" or "are involved with" everything denigrates everyone else, whose contributions and participations are really what make anything in and/or related to HP fun/interesting/enlivening/worth paying attention to.

Comments

[annearchy.livejournal.com]

Would it be worth suggesting we reclaim the term BNF from fandom-participants and give it to the truly famous fans, the ones you'd recognize when you're walking down the street?

Word. I admit to not actually reading Stephen King's novels, though I've seen a large number of movies and mini-series based on them, so I know the subject matter. But it amused me no end when he was awarded that National Book Award or whatever, which scandalized many people because he's not a "serious writer". From what I can tell he's a very serious writer - he's extremely serious ABOUT WRITING, but happens to write wildly popular novels... just like JKR. I think I'll pick up his book about writing just to see what he says about the process. And "word" to him about passive voice, the bane of the READER'S existence.

[aome.livejournal.com]

Actually ... er ... I don't know who Simon leBon is.

[shelaghc.livejournal.com]

Probably not.

You see, the nature of the term BNF lies in the fact that the fan is famous simply by virture of them *being* a fan. If the fan is already a famous person for some other reason, then, basically speaking, it doesn't actually count.

That's why the term Big Name Fan exists. The original BNF, Bjo Trimble, worked herself into the ground in order to keep the original Star Trek from being cancelled back in the sixties. And that was the only reason her name became known. In fact, there were those outside the fannish community who became marginally familiar with her as well.

And one don't necessarily have to be known all over any particular fandom to be a BNF - simply well-known in *some* aspect of fandom.

Stephen King, Diane Duane, Rosie O'Donnell, etc. have no need to be considered BNFs. They're already well-known personalities for other reasons. They are famous and also just happen to be fans.

Additionally, you can't reclaim the term because it would be akin to forcing all fans all over the globe, old and new, no matter what fandom they are associated with, to conform to a definition that you personally prefer rather than the one they already know.

And, frankly, there are those fans out there who are thrilled in the extreme that their big claim to fame is being a fan in some arena.

I think you'd be beating your head against a wall even suggesting this sort of thing.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<a hrefp"http://www.duranduran.com">') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

<a hrefp"http://www.duranduran.com">Yep, you do. ;)</a>

[aome.livejournal.com]

Uh, you *do* realise that that's not at all helpful....

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Wibble, forgot the quotemark at the end.
Http://www.duranduran.com

[aome.livejournal.com]

And that would explain it. Never listened to them, that I'm aware of.

[freya]

There are a few people who are known as BNFs that I would recognise whilst walking down the street. Granted I would be shocked as hell to see them on my street, but recognise them I would. However, I wouldn't know Stephen King if I met him in my soup. Never even heard of Simon leBon.
However, fair point guv. Tis a silly term anyway. I have never heard of half the people who are on bnfdeathmatch. And some of the ones I have heard of I don't consider BNFs.

[mandysbitch.livejournal.com]

I'm not actually Simon Le Bon but I know all the words to "Rio" - does that count? ;)

[storm-maven.livejournal.com]

I was wondering. Can I be a HP BNF is I'm still lusting over Simon LeBon after all these years? Can I be one by default because I am a BNF of Duran Duran?

[shelaghc.livejournal.com]

You're only a BNF of Duran Duran if lots of other Duranees know who you are.

;->

(please note tongue firmly planted in cheek since I'm not a Duranee and don't know who the BNFs of Duraneedom are.)

[meril.livejournal.com]

Concur. Thanks for the old school SF-fandom perspective on that.

This fannish glossary has a definition of BNF relating to the people who run SF conventions. Here's another definition. I prefer that one. ;)

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

And it's probably as laughable a concept as someone saying that slash should be redefined to mean only smut, involving mixed- and same-gender pairings, I know. But to be honest, when I first heard the term about two years ago, I initially thought it meant famous people who were fans of the books and/or movies. To be historical for a moment, the term didn't even have a place in HP until well after people who had extensive experience with other fandoms started participating in HP-stuff, fwiw.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Never even heard of Simon leBon.

Wah! Am ooooooooold!

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Only if you can sing while sailing!

I bet Captain Jack Sparrow could!

[freya]

*nods* Yup yup.
Ancient and wrinkly. Never mind. It comes to us all. One day I shall be shocked that no one has ever heard of the Spice Girls.

See, have heard of Simon leBranford, so clearly he is really very famous and this leBon creature is just a regular fan.

[mandysbitch.livejournal.com]

I bet Captain Jack Sparrow could!

Yeah, but does he know all the words to "Rio"?

[shelaghc.livejournal.com]

Oh. My. God.

Shows how long I've been in fandom that SMOG is not only recognizable to me, but I had almost forgotten the term because of its vanishing.

*g*

I'd like to prefer the second definition you provided. But, unfortunately, it ain't always true. There are *so* many BNFs who, upon attaining that status, turn into jerks who forget the only reason they *are* well-known is because of a TV series/movie/book/etc that other people like as well.

Someone planted that acronym on me once for a fandom that has now dwindled almost into obscurity - because of the fannish climate at the time within that fandom, I nearly choked. Didn't wanna be a BNF, *still* don't wanna be a BNF. *Way* too much nastiness and jealousy can erupt as a result. Particularly with other BNFs who want to be *bigger* BNFs than others.

Like it really matters at the end of the day when your head hits the pillow?

[meril.livejournal.com]

Well, it's nice to see a fandom oldbie on LJ. I don't consider myself one; 1995 is entirely too late an entry date for that.

I know that; I've seen that happen in every fandom I've been involved in.

There should be another term coined for the people who are, for a lack of a better term now, "BNFs" who are well-known primarily for irritating people.

(this is possibly why I stopped reading certain newsgroups; when killfile > people not in killfile, well, it's pretty much over)

[meril.livejournal.com]

Re slash: I've seen it redefined in certain portions of certain fandoms, but that only served to confuse the heck out of other fen (primarily SF fen) and that definition didn't leak out to the rest of fandom. Thank goodness.

To be historical for a moment, the term didn't even have a place in HP until well after people who had extensive experience with other fandoms started participating in HP-stuff

Exactly right, from what I've seen, or we wouldn't have to keep explaining the definition *as it relates to newer online media fandoms*. Experienced fen already know what it means.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

If he didn't, he'd make them up, and he'd do it with a flair!

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

You know, they actually vaguely look alike. Light hair, tall, interested in obscure sporting pasttimes...

[freya]

You can't mean....no! Simon is...Simon?

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

With a time turner.

Erm. This wasn't supposed to be a secret, was it?

[harlequincy.livejournal.com]

I just think of 'BNF' to mean exactly what it stands for: Big Name Fan. The whole thing seems sort of silly to me. BNFs are just people who've been in the fandom longer. A lot of them are very nice people too! *hugs all of the BNFs*

[freya]

Won't tell a soul.
He may keep his shameful secrets to himself. However, how is there a Simon in the past and in the present? If he went back in time wouldn't his present self go back in time too and then... I'll confuse myself.

Here Here!

[ixchelmala.livejournal.com]

Especially this bit:

...to say that there are 100 people who "run" or "control" or "are involved with" everything denigrates everyone else, whose contributions and participations are really what make anything in and/or related to HP fun/interesting/enlivening/worth paying attention to.

This should be included in some "fandom for newbies" type thing.

[jiggery-pokery.livejournal.com]

Seems likely that people would probably invent and popularise a term to describe those people who are currently thought of as BNFs even if the term BNF were to be appropriated for something else or not in use at all.

As a British child of 1975, I have heard of Simon Le Bon, though I tend to confuse Duran Duran with Wham! quite frequently. Didn't recognise the picture, though. (Sorry!)

[lilypiper.livejournal.com]

Word. I think I'll tweak that into my eMentoring welcome letter.

[shelaghc.livejournal.com]

I typed SMOG when I actually meant SMOF. ;->

I'm an oldbie? Crap - don't tell my brain that. It's still in the Peter Pan syndrome and thinks I'm around 12......

[rj-anderson.livejournal.com]

I think the most frightening thing to me, looking at that picture, is that Simon LeBon appears to have changed very little in the last twenty years. I need to know what skin cream he's using. I bet Nick Rhodes looks like a house-elf now, though...

As for the BNF thing, I learned that acronym from the Zendom mods about a year ago. I'd never heard it before that, and it was only afterward that I saw the idea creeping very slowly and tentatively into HP fandom. As far as I can see it serves no useful purpose whatsoever: one person's BNF is another person's "meh".

[galeotti.livejournal.com]

I'd have to agree. BNFs in the HP fandom tend to be recognized as people like Cassie and Lori, etc., but what some fail to realize is that they became Big Name by being fans. I think the term ought to be changed from Big Name Fan to something like Big Name Fanficcer as it might be just a tad bit more correct.

But yeah, the real BNFs are people like Stephen King and Diane Duane.

And that HP BNF deathmatch thing really ticked me off. *Sigh* The HP fandom can wank like no other.

[boniblithe.livejournal.com]

katemonkey once made a good point - that the biggest BNF in all of BNFdom still has significantly less people reading their journal and their fiction, than are watching a rerun of Alf at 3 am on a Sunday morning.

[dragon-charmer.livejournal.com]

And to say that there are 100 people who "run" or "control" or "are involved with" everything denigrates everyone else,

This is very true. Fandom is much bigger than that. However, the truth is that often a few names in fandom get associated with those 'in control'. It happened all the time when I was involved in Star Trek and those that run conventions and clubs were all seen as BNFs.

It would be nice to reach a point where people become 'well known' rather than 'Big Name', especially as some people now seem to want to use BNF as a term of abuse.

[no-remorse.livejournal.com]

Jarvis Cocker, the singer of the British band Pulp, defined VIP-dom once as being in a brightly lit closet watching Simon Le Bon eating of a paper plate.

For some strange reason that always striked me as a brilliant metaphor for inner circles, BNFs and Big Name Everythings.

[no-remorse.livejournal.com]

Big Name Fanficcer as it might be just a tad bit more correct.

But that would exclude the fanartists and the theorists, which are within their circles much more known than Lori. Ask the 11,000 members of the HPforGU list who Elkins is and then ask them who Maya is and you'll see what I mean.

The problem is the question what part of Big Name Fan you think is more important - the Big Name or being a fan. Fans define themselves through fanwork, Big Names are only marginally interesting to the fandom, because they have nothing to offer, but adoring reviews of the source material.

[freethepenguins.livejournal.com]

I agree completely! The term BNF has always confused me because there are just too many BNF's, so to speak, in the fandom. People who are actually in the spotlight and advocate/like HP are really the Big Names!

[shelaghc.livejournal.com]

You also have to remember when the term BNF was orginally coined there was no such thing as internet fandom.

We're now moving towards the third "generation," if you will, of fannishness (using the concept of twenty years being a generation).

Fandom as we know it basically began with Star Trek in the late 1960s.

At that time it was quite unusual for anyone who was a fan to achieve any sort of fame at all and that fame usually came about through some monumental achievement within the fannish community - which made such status fairly remarkable.

Most fans only met each other from attending cons - they might only hear or see names as the result of the different forms of amateur publishing that were circulated among other fans via postal mail. Fandom back then, in fact, was extremely isolated and isolating. Isolated in that it was very hard for fans to find each other until one met another at a convention and discovered that they might live close to each other.
Isolating in that the world at large had (and in some cases still does have) no acceptance of fannish pursuits and there was a tendency to keep such interests "in the closet."

So to become a "Big Name Fan" was far and away more of an achievement "way back when" than it is now. If your name became renowned in the fannish community, you pretty well had done something pretty spectacular in order to gain the BNF moniker.

But the internet changed all that and suddenly just about anyone with a computer can have their fifteen minutes of fame as a BNF.

It's much simpler for a name to become known when everyone is so connected and all it takes is one post to a yahoo group or an entry in a live journal to spread the word that someone was invited to tour the set of everyone's favorite TV series or movie; that someone else managed to become "best friends" with the writer of a book; this person created the best internet site on the planet for that fandom - etc.... Before you know it, everyone knows that fan's name and they are the latest BNF for all to envy and admire.

Man.... I went on and on about this didn't I?

My apologies for taking up so much space in your LJ, Heidi. Do you get the feeling someone needs to write a book about the history of fandom so the "younger crowd" knows where it all came from?

[flyingcarpet.livejournal.com]

I just think of BNFs as people who are well known in the fandom, for better or for worse. I don't think the use of the term really confers any benefits on its recipients, because often it just seems to make that person a target. That in turn makes their "name" that much bigger. If someone was universally hated in the fandom, (which will NEVER happen, because our fandom is too big and with too many different opinions) they'd obviously be the biggest BNF of all. So in my mind at least, it's not necessarily a seperate and wonderful status conferred on the elite few, just an acknowledgement of how well-known those few are. So I don't think, personally, and as a relatively unknown fan, that other people having that title is any kind of barrier to my own participation.

[heidi8.livejournal.com]

Mer, I don't know about a book, but an article using a lot of this, for lumosdissendium, would be great!

[ashkitty.livejournal.com]

But it's clear to me, after having watched and participated in the HP fandom for about three and a half years now, that there is no bar to someone with talent at writing, reviewing, reccing, drawing, theorizing, organizing or helping from becoming just as involved as s/he wants to be. And to say that there are 100 people who "run" or "control" or "are involved with" everything denigrates everyone else, whose contributions and participations are really what make anything in and/or related to HP fun/interesting/enlivening/worth paying attention to.

That's really true. :) Admittedly I'd not run into the term BNF before starting in HP, and found it a bit intimidating; I ended up staying away from it for a long time until a few other friends were moving over so I had someone to transition with.

So what gets worrisome about things like the BNF-watchers, which is fairly funny and in-jokey and all, is that it is so easy to intimidate people; maybe there is someone out there who has one good fic in them but nothing more, and they end up not sharing the one good fic because they figure they're not famous so nobody will pay attention anyway, and that all the work and marketing one has to do to be read just isn't worth it. And then we all miss out on one more good story, and that's sad.

Or something like that. Am not all that coherent. ;)

[nmalfoy.livejournal.com]

I agree. Some call me a BNF but when I look in the mirror I see the same thing I always did, and jerks still cut me off on the highway. It's just a term.

All I have to say is le Bon...Simom le Bon.

[alyeska.livejournal.com]

He's still cute after all these years. And to think I still have their vinyl LP's, EP's and a few 45's.

Did this come about because of BNF deathmatch or BNF watcher LJ? Just curious, I find this whole BNF concept rather intriguing. Actually, I never knew what BNF meant until just before Nimbus. Now I find myself listed as one. Interesting, I'm not well known in the fandom. Not even at FA, which is my corner of the fandom. In fact I think I'm hardly known, I just quietly wonder around and do my thing. Go figure.